Which Internal Art to you recommend?

[Kenpoist]

There is a new Wushu school that has opened up near my home and I am looking at supplementing my Kenpo training with an internal art (they teach the main 3). I have taken a few TaiChi classes and studied BaGua under Master Park Bok-Nam for a few months when I was younger (did not have the time or patience to dedicate myself at the time).

I don't have any experience with Hsing Yi , but read it is the most "hard/yang" of the internal styles and thus the easiest to transition to from an external art background. Bagua is supposed to be the most complete, but most difficult.

Your recommendations would be appreciated. I would like the health and relaxation benefit's as well as an art to improve my internal power (Qi Gong).

 

[Xue Sheng]

If the school calls it wushu I doubt it is a complete internal martial art training program.

If you studied Bagua under Master Park Bok-Nam you probably have a good idea of what is real and what isn't as far a bagua goes.

As for Tai Chi, finding a teacher that actually knows tai chi is not at all easy and there are a lot of competition forms out there practiced ad taught by many including the Wushu set that is not really Tai Chi.

If they say they teach Yang, Wu, Sun, Chen or any combination of those, I doubt they are really teaching Tai Chi and basically you will be getting forms with no internal.

Xingyi (Hsing Yi). There is a lot of internal training in Xingyi in the beginning, basic standing Qi Gong type stuff, and to become proficient in Xingyi takes a long time. But any internal martial art takes a long time.

I would find out, if possible, where the instructor learned his or her internal martial arts. That would be a good place to start.

As for which one to take, that depends on you. Tai Chi is a soft internal style; Xingyi is sometimes called a hard/soft style. Bagua is...I'm not sure, but of the 3 Tai Chi is the softest.

Tai Chi can be linear, circular, high low, have a lot of fajing, have little or no fajing, etc, depending on what family it comes from

Bagua is circular, but as you know can strike in a linear direction

Xingyi is linear but has angular strikes as well.

And now my over used links for more information
Xingyiquan
http://www.answers.com/xingyi
Tai Chi Chuan
http://www.answers.com/Tai%20Chi%20Chuan
List of Tai Chi Chuan forms
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-tai-chi-chuan-forms?method=22
Baguazhang
http://www.answers.com/topic/baguazhang?method=22
Internal Styles of Martial Arts
Neijia
http://www.answers.com/topic/neijia?method=22

 

[Dronak]

If they say they teach Yang, Wu, Sun, Chen or any combination of those, I doubt they are really teaching Tai Chi and basically you will be getting forms with no internal.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Well, maybe in the case of a combination it's true. But people who are "really teaching Tai Chi" aren't going to say their art has no family lineage, are they? Teachers who provide internal training will also be part of some family's style/lineage, so I think they'd tell you which style they teach. I don't think I'd use this as a guide on who will give you the best training. Asking the teacher questions is probably a better way to find out what you'll learn.

As for the original question, I don't think I could tell you. I've only done tai chi, so I'm probably partial to that. I suspect that any of them can give you basically the same thing, in somewhat different ways, so my general suggestion would be to find the best teacher you can and go with that. Unless you have a particular preference for one art over the other, going with the best teacher available is probably your best bet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Well, maybe in the case of a combination it's true. But people who are "really teaching Tai Chi" aren't going to say their art has no family lineage, are they? Teachers who provide internal training will also be part of some family's style/lineage, so I think they'd tell you which style they teach. I don't think I'd use this as a guide on who will give you the best training. Asking the teacher questions is probably a better way to find out what you'll learn.

As for the original question, I don't think I could tell you. I've only done tai chi, so I'm probably partial to that. I suspect that any of them can give you basically the same thing, in somewhat different ways, so my general suggestion would be to find the best teacher you can and go with that. Unless you have a particular preference for one art over the other, going with the best teacher available is probably your best bet.

Let me clarify; if one teacher claims that they can teach you Wu, Chen Yang, Sun, Wu, Wu/Hao. I find it highly unlikely that they are teaching you anything but competition forms and are more likely wushu oriented than actual traditional family oriented.

I may buy it if they claim 2 but I would have to check it out thoroughly, but if they claim greater than 2, I find it highly unlikely they can teach you any depth or actual internal training.

As for lineage, don't get me started, but the teachers that I have known that had a very good lineage and were very confident in their style and were very good, never publicized it. I only found out by asking.

 

[Dronak]

Oh, OK. I misunderstood your first post. I didn't realize you meant if the teacher claimed to teach all/most of the families. I thought you meant if they claimed to teach any one of them. OK, I agree then. If they know 3+ styles, there's probably a good chance that they haven't gone very deeply into them. They may have specialized in one though, and have detailed knowledge of it. But I'm sure it takes a lot of time to learn an art in depth, so generally speaking, more style will mean less depth in each.

About lineage, all I really meant is that teachers would tell you which style they're teaching. I wouldn't expect them to reveal the entire history, but I would expect them to tell students which style is being taught. That way the students would know they learned, for example, Yang style and not Chen style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

About lineage, all I really meant is that teachers would tell you which style they're teaching. I wouldn't expect them to reveal the entire history, but I would expect them to tell students which style is being taught. That way the students would know they learned, for example, Yang style and not Chen style.

Ok, yes I agree.

However be careful of the occasional charlatan. I know of someone who teaches just about anything Chinese style you can think of, and does the forms very very well, is from China and for the Chen style he teaches claims to have learned from the Chen family.

To Quote someone from the Chen family, "He never learned from my family"

 

[Xue Sheng]

oops, I originally responded to the wrong post.

There is another internal style that I tend to over look because I know little about it beyond that it is a combination of Xingyi, Bagua and Tai Chi Chuan.
I am going to make it a post to try and find out more about it.
Mandarin – Liu He Ba Fa
Cantonese - Lok Hop Ba Fa
http://www.answers.com/Liu%20He%20Ba%20Fa

 

[brothershaw]

I would go for the bagua, I believe you might have the best chance of getting some useful stuff from the bagua, or coming across a competent teacher. Alot of people claim internal styles but I have seen very,very few who I think could use it. Watch a class if the look like they can use thier stuff to some degree go for it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would go for the bagua, I believe you might have the best chance of getting some useful stuff from the bagua, or coming across a competent teacher. Alot of people claim internal styles but I have seen very,very few who I think could use it. Watch a class if the look like they can use thier stuff to some degree go for it.

I have studied internal styles for many years and I tend to agree with you. There are a lot of people out there that claim they do internal that do not, the internal aspects are not easy.

But I also believe studying Bagua, Xingyi, or Tai Chi without the internal is risking becoming a dance lesson.

However I would have to agree that if you are looking for just any old internal style you would probably have more success with Bagua because it is pretty to look at therefore it will attack more students and you are more likely to gain some sort of martial proficiency in Bagua long before Tai Chi

And Xingyi, although it looks simple and is very powerful and effective it is not simple to understand and with out the internal it tends not to be as effective as easily as bagua would be.

This is not to say that the internal is not a very important part of Bagua, it is extremely important. But I think you have a better chance of being able to use it as a martial art with out it BUT it is still not effective unless you at least have a rudimentary understanding of the theory (physics) behind it

 

[brothershaw]

I agree.

 

[CrushingFist]

I have learned from this thread. But where I live I am most certainly has good Bagua, Xingyi and Taiji teachers. So now is more personal .. I will have to go take a look at all 3 of them and various schools offering them especially the ones less commercial and with teachers who have more years studying them. But maybe I should follow something that said Xingyi first, then Bagua then Tai Chi .. If there would be a perfect underground school with teachers teaching not for the money , 3 teachers 1 experienced in each of these would be great dream

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have learned from this thread. But where I live I am most certainly has good Bagua, Xingyi and Taiji teachers. So now is more personal .. I will have to go take a look at all 3 of them and various schools offering them especially the ones less commercial and with teachers who have more years studying them. But maybe I should follow something that said Xingyi first, then Bagua then Tai Chi .. If there would be a perfect underground school with teachers teaching not for the money , 3 teachers 1 experienced in each of these would be great dream

Just because they charge or don't charge does not mean they are good or bad. Go look at the schools that teach the style and ask questions. See which style appeals to you and try it. I know a very good San Shao person that teaches very few people and charges little or nothing, but it is very traditional training. Learn one thing practice it for a long time and then if you have it right, you learn something else. My Tai Chi teacher charges for lessons and he was always very good, until recently, but that is another story. Chen Zhenglei charges when he teaches in the US and he is very good.

In China there are a lot of martial artists that believe the first teacher you start with is not your last teacher.

Example if you go to a Chen Zhenglei (Chen Style) seminar here you learn from Chen Zhenglei. In China if you go to the Chen School you never see Chen Zhenglei as a beginner. You learn from his students, all champions in their own right. You will not start training with Sifu Chen until you are at least an intermediate student or advanced.

You have to start somewhere and you can always change if necessary