Where On The Scale of Spirituality...?

Xue Sheng

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OnlyAnEgg said:
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I see martial arts as a path to many things: physical fitness, discipline, skill and, as it's the topic, a degree of internal knowledge that can easily be moved to a deeper spirituality. I maintain spirituality is innate; but, there's a great difference between a spiritual creature and a creature of spirituality. It, too, is a path.

We too have a semantic issue I think. I will not ever refer to this as spirituality in context with martial arts. If you do, that is great, I won't.

I will not call this spirituality because that is to easily misconstrued, understood as, or changed to religion, which martial arts are not.


OnlyAnEgg said:
/Is that not an agreement on the innate nature of some degree of spirituality?

No, it is saying that they do not see these things separately therefore they feel no need to teach them as such and I was using your word "spirituality" I would not apply this to this situation.

And this is not saying that we are born with it, which is what innate is. It is saying to the teacher that the training of the martial art is what will lead to a deeper understanding.
 

bushidomartialarts

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the general kenpo culture doesn't seem to place much importance on the spiritual growth of their students, but many individual instructors and dojos work hard to provide some guidance anyway.
 

Xue Sheng

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My final statement on this and then I will return to the safety of my “martial arts” area of the boards.

I heard a term this morning “secular enlightenment” I can honestly say I have absolutely no problem with this terminology being applied to the martial arts. Therefore by that same logic I should not have any problem with the terminology “secular spirituality” being applied to martial arts either. This is not saying that anyone needs to, or should change there way of speaking, writing, typing, etc. It is just saying that I would have no argument against that terminology. Although I do not think I would ever use it, but I certainly have no argument against it.

Also I do not have any problem with religion nor do I think of religions as cults. Quite the contrary, I have studied religions in the past and I find the study quite fascinating. But some religions become cults, as far as I can tell no cult, in recent history, has become a religion.

I can respect a truly religious person but I equally fear a religious zealot. I did not wish to leave anyone the impression that I am against religion or the lack of it either. I am just very concerned with the application of religion to martial arts, particularly Western religions and new age religions. But I do not have anything against a martial arts school that practices Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. I do have a problem with any of those schools if they attempt to put forth the idea that there way is the true way and all others are wrong and/or evil due to their own misunderstanding or intolerance.

Zaijian
 
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MartialIntent

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bushidomartialarts said:
the general kenpo culture doesn't seem to place much importance on the spiritual growth of their students, but many individual instructors and dojos work hard to provide some guidance anyway.
I think it's encouraging that instructors are going the extra mile to accommodate students who have the desire to further travel their own spiritual paths in the art. Excellent. Though for me, no matter what the art, there's always capacity for practitioners to gain a deeper knowledge of themselves, which hopefully directs them towards enlightenment. I don't think this is strictly the domain of eastern arts either.

What style of Kenpo do you practise? As a layperson when it comes to kenpo, I'd have thought of the art as perhaps not aligning itself to any particular spiritual ideas - though having done some research into Shorinji Kempo, I found the opposite to be true in that time is devoted within the practise hall to the spiritual practices utterly integral to the artform as formulated by Doshin So. Do you know if this is the case?

Respects!
 
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MartialIntent

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Xue Sheng said:
I can respect a truly religious person but I equally fear a religious zealot. I did not wish to leave anyone the impression that I am against religion or the lack of it either. I am just very concerned with the application of religion to martial arts, particularly Western religions and new age religions.
There's still a confusion among practitioners in the arts between religion and spirituality / philosophy even [take a look at the MT spirituality / philosophy sub-forum and see how many threads concern organised religion]. But whilst a faithful follower of a religion can undoubtedly attain a martial spirituality with the assistance of their faith, I maintain, that there is no requirement for one to hold any religious convictions to achieve the same enlightenment.

I appreciate that for schools based in the far east or Asia, there's no deliniation between spiritual practice and physical practice, they are inherent and inseparable parts of the whole art but in the west we do still refer to mind AND body and to the subsequent desire for attainment of mind/body unification in our practices.

This discrepancy between eastern / western systems may well be due to misinterpretations or minsunderstandings of the nuances of the eastern teachings as they were passed across to the west but I don't think it takes away from the fact that personal spirituality [by whatever name] is achievable by ANY interested and open martial artist irrespective of their art and irrespective of their religious beliefs or lack of.

ps. I hope you don't return to the safety of your “martial arts” area of the boards. Your insight is welcome. I say be free and roam and cast your net wide! ;)

Respects!
 

Xue Sheng

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MartialIntent said:
ps. I hope you don't return to the safety of your “martial arts” area of the boards. Your insight is welcome. I say be free and roam and cast your net wide! ;)

Respects!

Thank You, but right now I pretty much feel I have said enough on the subject, although apparently I am finding it hard to stop commenting.

I think I need to take a break from Spirituality and religion and the Martial Arts, and I need to focus more on the martial arts part.

I am returning to an old style I did many years ago and it will require more training and less talking/typing.

Sooner or later I will be back, you can't get rid of me that easily :)

Good luck in your quest.
 

Fu_Bag

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This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people. I think that it's a lose, lose situation. For one, oftentimes, people come into martial arts with their own deeply ingrained religious beliefs. Some people think that the spirituality stuff comes with a big cup of poison Kool-Aid. I think that there's a real fear among some that they'll be "tainted".

It's easy to understand where they're coming from. I have a different way of thinking about it. The spiritual side is like the expansion pack for a popular video game. In it, you have all of the spirit and culture that allowed the art to live, breathe, grow, and prosper. It's kind of like a reference library and a collection of snapshots of times past.

As an actor will say "So, What's my motivation?", so do martial artists. Practicing nothing but physical techniques without referencing the everyday lives of those who originally practiced them seems absurd to me. Suppose that your everyday experience involved the very real possibility of being killed in some type of violence. Well, with only the physical techniques, your only option is to engage in physical conflict.

Let's say that you were fortunate enough to lose, but survive, 4 or 5 fights and got to thinking, "Whoa. If that person had wanted to kill me, I'd be dead. I've got to find a better way of dealing with these types of encounters so that I don't end up dead next time." So maybe you learn how to reason with people, improve your ability to interact with aggressors, and manage yourself internally so that you won't get killed.

I've known some people who've come back from battle having killed someone. For them, it's no joke. It's not cool. It's something that they need to find healing from.

Martial arts is about surviving war. You aren't technically surviving war if you die on the inside because you happen to be lucky enough to make it off of the battlefield. You don't want to bring the war home to your family. You want to be able to feel whole again. If you're fighting for peace and justice, you want to be able to feel peaceful, alive, and human inside once the battle is done.

Eventhough there are books that cover the spiritual side of some arts, if the instructor doesn't find value in them, why would the students? There are also no shortage of parents who would go through the roof if they found their child reading about some "heathen, godless ways". Some people just really, really, really want to be Power Rangers and, hey, it sells. I think that's another reason why instructors may be very wary about associating themselves with the "mushy" or "mystical" stuff.

At least we have the internet to discuss such things. :)

Great topic MartialIntent. :D


Fu Bag
 

pstarr

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I believe that the spiritual nature of the martial arts is very important but it can be transmitted only by someone who has achieved a high level of skill and understanding of his or her art.

Over the many years that I've been teaching I've had numerous people enroll, aspiring to learn the "spiritual nature" of the arts and hence, themselves. I always caution them that such desires will only act as stumbling blocks if they appear too early along the path...and sure enough, they almost always failed to realize that grasping the true spiritual nature of the martial arts is achieved only through very rigorous physical and mental training.

Certainly, the martial arts are not the only (physical) activities that have a spiritual side...many years ago I spent some time with Alan Watts (the first Caucasian zen master and a very prolific writer whose books are still to be found in many bookstores). Dr. Watts (who was also a devoted aikidoist) said, "Any physical activity - from tennis to bowling to martial arts - becomes a spiritual experience if it's carried to its extreme."
 

Fu_Bag

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pstarr,

Those are some great points and, I have to say, that I've met some weird people whose weirdness was greatly magnified by the "mystical" and "mushy" stuff. You're right about good, honest training. It takes a lot more than your physical self to keep getting up to get nailed again, and again, and again.

That strength then becomes ingrained in every part of you so that, when you're ready for the spiritual stuff, you "just happen to find it". Trying to learn it before you've developed in complementary ways can make a person a very kooky critter. As injuries happen in every physical activity, those injuries, be they mental, physical, or otherwise, can help a person to grow spiritually through actual need.

At this time, my thoughts are that the most natural time to learn the spiritual stuff is when you need it to survive. However, with that said, I think that both the physical and spritual aspects of any martial art can lead to a person's downfall if they're either taught, or learned, unnaturally.

Respect...

Fu Bag :)
 

SFC JeffJ

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I've said it before, but since this is up and going again, I think at their core, combative styles are physical at their core. However, they can be a powerful metaphor for spirituality. But nothing more than that. Then again, everything that people say has a spiritual side is a metaphor for how to live.
 

Colin_Linz

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MartialIntent said:
What style of Kenpo do you practise? As a layperson when it comes to kenpo, I'd have thought of the art as perhaps not aligning itself to any particular spiritual ideas - though having done some research into Shorinji Kempo, I found the opposite to be true in that time is devoted within the practise hall to the spiritual practices utterly integral to the artform as formulated by Doshin So. Do you know if this is the case?

Respects!
With regard to Shorinji Kempo. There are three ranking structures in operation. These are Bukai (martial art) Hokai (philosophy) and Sokai (religion). To gain Sokai rankings it is necessary to train at doin, as dojo’s are not allowed to teach the religious syllabus. As there are no doin’s outside of Japan there are only a few westerners with Sokai ranking. Bukai and Hokai ranking will be gained in normal practice at a dojo or shibu.

Due to changes in the law in Japan where it is now illegal to teach religion in a publicly owned building WSKO (World Shorinji Kempo Organisation) have had to change their written educational material. Where as our old Fukudoko Hon had a section dedicated to the religious side of Shorinji Kempo its new replacement, the Toku Hon contains no religious information, and as such can be used by all kenshi.

From the standpoint of normal training the only religious reference is to Dharma and practicing the principles of Kongo Zen (Kongo Zen Buddhism) during the reciting of Shinjo (creed). This is at the halfway point of training and will be preceded by Seiku (meditation) and Seigun (oath). After this there will normally be some form of short philosophy lesson. Actually the whole lesson is a philosophy lesson. When Doshin So developed Shorinji Kempo and its training methods he did so with idea of using the physical training as a resource to re-enforce his philosophical ideas. It really is one big experiential learning tool.

So to answer your question, the philosophy is absolutely integral to the practice of Shorinji Kempo; however the religion is not. At one stage you had to be Buddhist to learn it, but this has not been the case for many years now.
 

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I teach strictly from a "spiritual" perspective. I do not teach fighting at all. The art I teach is about healing. I work with fighting technique, only because it is effective to punch and kick our way through blocks in our energy field. I also only teach students 18 years of age of older, provided they are ready to move beyond the physical to what I perceive to be the true essence of martial arts.

The discipline I teach is called Shihando, Way of the Master, which teaches the alchemy of Reiki, a Japanese healing art, and Juai Kung Karbo (Mastery through Movement), which incorporates Yang Style Tai-Chi and Shaolin Style Kung Fu forms. The discipline of Shihando touches through symbolic movement the substance of Life Force, the energy called ch'i or ki, within and surrounding the body. Everything is this energy.

The Universal Life Force, ch'i or ki, is a language. In Shihando, each movement of the forms is a stroke in a calligraphy designed to enable the practitioner to channel the power that is the Universal Life Force. The sequential movements are based upon geometric patterns that when combined form calligraphies or symbols, which are Sanskrit in their origin.

The study of this discipline allows us to communicate with a more subtle level of awareness. It is the study of a Universal language that, like any dialogue, produces an energy unique in vibration and frequency. The symbolic form of the calligraphies speak the language of the Life Force.
The language of the Universal Life Force speaks to us about consciously creating our reality. It speaks to us of finding the balance in our lives in the midst of imbalance. It speaks to us of the importance of achieving a sense of movement through personal growth. Applying this language through the study of Shihando teaches us control without control, as we allow the Life Force to guide our movements while our movements are guiding the Life Force.

This language teaches us to pay attention to all of the details, but to stay relaxed, centered, focused and flexible so we can move with the flow of energy around us instead of against it. It teaches us to be palm trees instead of oak trees in the darkness of a hurricane. It teaches us to move with the grace of a gazelle. It teaches us to seek the inner beauty and thus see beyond the physical. The language of the Universal Life Force teaches us to touch and feel with our hands and hearts, to see and perceive with our eyes and minds and to listen and hear with our ears and souls.

It dares us to be as whole as we already are.


When we allow the disciplines of martial arts to touch us at a higher level than just the physical, then we can begin to get a glimpse of the depths of power and energy that we are. The immortal essence of the Universe is who we really are. By tuning into its energies through form, we tune into our substance. By tuning into our Life Force, we tune into ourselves.

Thus we face the epitome of our spiritual awareness: to be able to move beyond the physical to that which makes the physical — to the substance of Life Force — to our soul.

Anyone can learn the movements and symbols of the Universal Life Force, but what of the essence of those movements and symbols? The challenge is to study and learn of the depths of meaning within each geometric in terms of what it is doing to alter our perception of who we are.

The true study is of ourselves, not of the forms.

On your scale, I'd say I'm at about 200%.

Thank you.
 

Fu_Bag

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Colin_Linz,

Thank you for sharing that information. That's interesting about the religion in publicly owned buildings being illegal. Do they define dojos as publicly owned buildings? It seems self-defeating to me that a law would be passed outlawing a certain aspect of culture. If that's the case, that really is a sad state of affairs for the preservation of the martial arts.


NLMontana,

Wow. I don't think I've even heard of anyone practicing an art like yours before. With the "spirituality" stuff being so taboo, is it difficult to draw students? I agree with your estimation of "200%". Your methods sound interesting. I'll have to take some time to absorb what you've put out there. It sounds very holistic. :)
 

Colin_Linz

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Fu_Bag said:
Colin_Linz,

Thank you for sharing that information. That's interesting about the religion in publicly owned buildings being illegal. Do they define dojos as publicly owned buildings? It seems self-defeating to me that a law would be passed outlawing a certain aspect of culture. If that's the case, that really is a sad state of affairs for the preservation of the martial arts.
If a dojo is in any government owned building they are not allowed to teach religion. This is not only with us, it is any religion. If the dojo is in a privately owned building they can teach religion. In regards to Shorinji Kempo, to teach the religion (Kongo Zen Buddhism) it is necessary to hold the required ranking in this aspect. If you hold the rank and the premises is suitable then you will have the classification of doin instead of dojo and teach the religion along side of the martial art and philosopy. Just for interest our headquarters is a temple in Tadotsu. It is a Shorinji Kempo temple and also a school. They teach a normal high school curriculum along with Shorinji Kempo. They also have a higher learning institute where Shorinji Kempo kenshi of yudansha ranks can study full time for a period of either 2 or 3 years. They devote 4 hours a day to the martial art and 4 hours a day to the religion. At the end of the period they will exit with the required grade to teach Shorinji Kempo. Below is our Headquarters, the buildings are for accomodation of live in students, WSKO administration, the School, a museum, and a three level training complex (2000 people can train there at any one time I've been told). I have been there twice and would dearly love to return again, the experiance was great. This is a link to the school if your interested http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/school/zenrin/distinctive.html

hombu.jpg
 

Fu_Bag

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Colin_Linz,

Thank you for the additional information and clarification. What an outstanding setup you guys have going! It's very encouraging that such a place exists! I bet the students there get very high grades.

In short....<drool>

That'd be great if such places existed in the West. :)
 

Colin_Linz

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Fu_Bag said:
Colin_Linz,

Thank you for the additional information and clarification. What an outstanding setup you guys have going! It's very encouraging that such a place exists! I bet the students there get very high grades.

In short....<drool>

That'd be great if such places existed in the West. :)
Three years full time study will get you to 4th dan, you need to be at least 1st dan to start. Grades in Shorinji Kempo can take a little while to acheive. From memory the two head instructor's (we do most of our techniques in pair form) there are 6th or 7th dan. This is a link to Kawashima sensei profile, he is head the head instructor. at Hombu (headquarters) Doin. He has studied there pretty pretty much full time for many years. I first met him in 1989 he was assisting the then head instructors Arai sensei and Yamazaki sensei. http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/17.html
 

Elayna

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This is a wonderful thread for people exploring themselves, sprituality what it means. I believet that we all have so much to learn and so much to do.
I dont think anyone one of us can honestly say that we have learned everything or more then someone else. For those of us who concentrate more on the "spiritual" then the physical, we are lacking in the complete training, knowledge, and feeling that comes along with that line of training. And the same for those that study only the phsyical. They do not have the complete training, knowledge and feeling that comes with that line of training.
And for this reason I believe is why the great masters stress so much being able to train in all aspect of martial arts. So that we can be well balances in all that we do. For if we only concentrate on one aspect of martial arts, then we are not complete or whole.
I do not believe that I know more then those who train for the body, just because I feel I understand the great masters "spiritual point of view". Just as I hope those who train the body dont feel they know more then those who do study spirituality.
So I guess what Im trying to say is...If you think you know something...you may not really. Just keep studying, keep learning, and always be willing to learn something from someone else.

On the scale of spirituality I am...Unknown...Is there even one?? What are the measurments??

Have a good night everyone. :) :) :)
 

Curlykarateka

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I dunno about spirituality, I don't really believe in spirit's or souls but I do take the philosophy of it quite seriously. Things like not initiating conflict and the like. Also I do hold a "great power, great responsibility" view. It's probably very naive and will land me in hospital one day but part of me tells me that if someone is being bullied or opressed then it is my duty as a martial artist to intervene, within reason obviously, three guys with knives can pick on who ever they like if I'm unarmed
 

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