When is it appropriate to make contact with a new student?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So we currently have another thread that has the option of going down this road, but is stuck on an argument that will probably continue for five more pages. So in an attempt to make it more constructive, I'm starting this thread:

When is it appropriate to make contact with a new student? At what point in training is it okay to hit their body, and at what point is it okay to hit their head? And when is it okay to increase the contact from light to full contact.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Personally, my answer has changed recently. I'm generally used to light contact and sparring with a fresh student (first or second class), but they are aware that this is the case beforehand. I would never suggest more than light contact for the first few weeks in the past (I normally don't do more than light contact anyway as I've gotten more concussions by 23 than most people I know...no reason to get more).

However, a couple weeks ago I hit a new student with a kick harder than I meant to, and it was obvious by his reaction. I immediately apologized, but he did something I did not expect...He asked me to kick him again, so he can get used to the pain. I've had people ask me that a couple months in, but never in their first class. The fact that he was perfectly fine with getting kicked hard from the get-go and wanted it again, makes me think that maybe it's a way to measure out the right type of crazy that normally continues in martial arts, at least with strikes to the body.

...It occurs to me this may have been rambling, but I'm posting it anyway

 

[Dirty Dog]

The answer is, obviously, that it varies.
Our new students, who are often kids, start with little or no contact. As they advance and mature, the level of contact increases (if they want). We rarely if ever go 100%, especially with shots to the head, because that simply isn't necessary or conducive to good health.
But how fast the level of contact increases depends.
I've got in mind a young man who started with us in his teens. He's 6' 6" and about 250. He's 21 now, and his plan for this entire time has been a career in law enforcement, with a preference for a federal job. He's a football player, and so he's used to heavy contact. We started him sparring with higher ranks early on, because of his size. And we allowed a higher level of contact. He's just tested for 1st geup. When I spar with him, I strike as hard as I am struck. That usually means about 75%. Hard, but not injury hard.
We've got another student who is a 1st Dan, about 45, and she prefers NOT to spar with more than moderate contact. In part because she's had her nose broken 3 times (as a mid-level kyu rank in another system) and had some expensive repair work done.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've got in mind a young man who started with us in his teens. He's 6' 6" and about 250. He's 21 now, and his plan for this entire time has been a career in law enforcement, with a preference for a federal job. He's a football player, and so he's used to heavy contact. We started him sparring with higher ranks early on, because of his size. And we allowed a higher level of contact. He's just tested for 1st geup. When I spar with him, I strike as hard as I am struck. That usually means about 75%. Hard, but not injury hard.

What do you consider early on in this situation? If I was running a school, i would be cautious about letting him spar with a higher level of contact, until he's been there for a bit and i know he can control it. Enough accidents happen with normal people who can't control it, I would assume someone who's 6'6 and 250 pounds would be an even bigger risk in that regard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So we currently have another thread that has the option of going down this road, but is stuck on an argument that will probably continue for five more pages. So in an attempt to make it more constructive, I'm starting this thread:

When is it appropriate to make contact with a new student? At what point in training is it okay to hit their body, and at what point is it okay to hit their head? And when is it okay to increase the contact from light to full contact.

For me, this varies depending upon who is delivering the contact. A new student can expect some contact from me almost immediately. If I demonstrate a defense that includes a vertical fist to the floating ribs, my "demonstration dummy" can expect my knuckles to make contact. How much contact depends upon my estimation of the student's readiness. If it's a brand new student, it will be gentle in the extreme - just enough for them to realize the knuckles are there. If I'm demonstrating on a black belt at someone else's school (I don't have any yet), they can expect a little energy in that, even in a demonstration. This is a chance for them to get used to getting hit.

If the person punching at them is new, no contact - just to avoid the otherwise inevitable mistaken pummeling. If it's a student who has been with me long enough to have some control, their level of contact should be one step (yes, that's subjective) below what I would deliver - a measure they get used to over time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For me, this varies depending upon who is delivering the contact. A new student can expect some contact from me almost immediately. If I demonstrate a defense that includes a vertical fist to the floating ribs, my "demonstration dummy" can expect my knuckles to make contact. How much contact depends upon my estimation of the student's readiness. If it's a brand new student, it will be gentle in the extreme - just enough for them to realize the knuckles are there. If I'm demonstrating on a black belt at someone else's school (I don't have any yet), they can expect a little energy in that, even in a demonstration. This is a chance for them to get used to getting hit.

Do you generally use a new student as a demonstration dummy? In the schools I have been in, they always use the most experienced student for that, but I can see the logic behind having a new student experience that role.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What do you consider early on in this situation? If I was running a school, i would be cautious about letting him spar with a higher level of contact, until he's been there for a bit and i know he can control it. Enough accidents happen with normal people who can't control it, I would assume someone who's 6'6 and 250 pounds would be an even bigger risk in that regard.

That's part of the reason for letting him spar with higher ranks. If his control is lacking (it's actually always been pretty good) the higher ranked student is more likely to be able to cope with it than a lower rank, and also more likely to speak up and remind him about the level of contact.

 

[marques]

When is it appropriate to make contact with a new student? At what point in training is it okay to hit their body, and at what point is it okay to hit their head? And when is it okay to increase the contact from light to full contact.

My opinion as changed, too. I started sparring since first class and I have no bad memories. So it was just normal for me and the routine in every class. Light contact.

Then, when training in training groups I asked beginners to spar with me. Even slowly, carefully, they where absolutely uncomfortable with that. Included a 'beginner' with 2 years karate.

Today I would teach/review footwork and jab and then start sparring only with that. For example. Simple. No bad surprises. Light and slow, naturally. And then had more moves.

Light or full contact? It depends on what you're training for. I value light contact, as a standard. But all high grades should take the risk of full contact (a few times) or do not graduate, in my opinion. Being unable to apply things under pressure is not high level...

 

[Buka]

I think it would be up to whoever is running the dojo.
But I think @Dirty Dog's post represents everything everywhere, says it all, really.

 

[Tez3]

This is where being an experienced and well trained instructor tells. To be able to assess the needs and abilities of students is an important skill, knowing what to teach when is vital. Yes there is usually a syllabus to follow but being able to teach sympathetically ( that doesn't mean being soft btw!) is something all good instructors have in common. Yes students need to progress but doing too much too soon is a mistake, having confident and competent students is the end aim.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you generally use a new student as a demonstration dummy? In the schools I have been in, they always use the most experienced student for that, but I can see the logic behind having a new student experience that role.

When I'm teaching them their first few movements, I am generally working one-on-one part of the time. I want them to feel where the impact is (though just barely), and let them make that impact on me (often more than barely - poor control and all). I don't use them to demonstrate to the class, but for them to feel the technique. I've found they "buy in" faster if they feel the reality than if they just see what I'm doing.

It also gives me a chance to experience the movement of an untrained person, something I catalog for when I'm working on my own technique. Sneaksy.

 

[Ironbear24]

It depends on the age. Normally adults are making contact in the first week but that isn't full contact either. For us you don't start doing full contact for at least 6-7 months into it, but before that you will normally so lighter contact.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As I think about this thread, I'm realizing there's a very different answer depending upon style. When I answered initially, I was addressing the striking side of our art. Grappling styles - if they talk about their grappling - would all have to say: lots of contact, almost immediately. It's not full-force contact, but I'm not even sure how to word a response from a grappling standpoint. I think in grappling, speed is the measure most analogous to level of contact in striking.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As I think about this thread, I'm realizing there's a very different answer depending upon style. When I answered initially, I was addressing the striking side of our art. Grappling styles - if they talk about their grappling - would all have to say: lots of contact, almost immediately. It's not full-force contact, but I'm not even sure how to word a response from a grappling standpoint. I think in grappling, speed is the measure most analogous to level of contact in striking.

Yep. In grappling arts, contact starts from the beginning of the first lesson and never stops.

I think the original question might be better worded as asking about the appropriate level of impact for newer students. For striking arts this could cover punches and kicks while for grappling arts it could cover the impact with the ground when being thrown. I'm in favor of starting out with very, very, very light impact to the head (pretty much just touch contact) (obviously talking about strikes only - there's no way to lightly throw someone on their head) and light impact to the body, then gradually increasing the intensity as the student progresses.

For grappling, the other consideration besides speed and impact of the technique is pressure. I can hold someone down on the ground with enough pressure that even though it probably won't cause actual damage, it will make a new student want to quit and never come back. There's no point in that. It's better to give the student time to acclimate to those sorts of positions before you start crushing the life out of them.

 

[WaterGal]

I think there are a couple of variables, including: how hard is the contact, and whether it's a controlled drill or free sparring.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think there are a couple of variables, including: how hard is the contact, and whether it's a controlled drill or free sparring.

How about for your dojang?

 

[drop bear]

I think there are a couple of variables, including: how hard is the contact, and whether it's a controlled drill or free sparring.

And why you are there. If you want to fight for example contact happens pretty quickly.

You should probably be able to set your own pace a bit.

No point pushing people out. But there is no point holding them back either.

We had a guy who was not only sparring in the first week but swinging foe ko,s

We knocked him down three or four times a round. He is still training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And why you are there. If you want to fight for example contact happens pretty quickly.

You should probably be able to set your own pace a bit.

No point pushing people out. But there is no point holding them back either.

We had a guy who was not only sparring in the first week but swinging foe ko,s

We knocked him down three or four times a round. He is still training.

That's a good point, DB. If someone is gung-ho and can safely take the contact, then give it to them. If they are gun-shy, then go slow and give them a chance to adjust.

 

[WaterGal]

How about for your dojang?

For TKD we do Olympic-style sparring, and pretty much right away in their first month we have students do controlled drills with contact while wearing pads. That gets them used to being able to wearing the gear, aiming at it, getting hit, using controlled power, learning how to move around in a dynamic way and kick, how to dodge, etc etc. But that's very structured. After 6 months or so, they should have a good foundation to do Olympic-style sparring.