When do we become part of the tradition?

[dvcochran]

Leaving the debate of whether your style is modern or traditional aside, when did you feel you became part of the tradition? This seems to be a question easier answered by those who have stayed in one style for some time but what is your perspective?

When/how did you begin to feel invested in your style beyond your own physical benefits? What have you done to grow? Where do you find your greatest satisfaction in what you do?

 

[jobo]

Leaving the debate of whether your style is modern or traditional aside, when did you feel you became part of the tradition? This seems to be a question easier answered by those who have stayed in one style for some time but what is your perspective?

When/how did you begin to feel invested in your style beyond your own physical benefits? What have you done to grow? Where do you find your greatest satisfaction in what you do?

what are you meaning by tradition, my group is very light on the " tradition" of katrate, the instructoe is know by his first name, people turn up in what ever clothing they feel appropriate, the little it does have I tolerate rather than embrace, I can see no reason at all for counting to 10 in japaneese or referring to moves by anything other than there English name, which the instructor has to do, as very new can be bothered to learn the Japanese name certainly I just look at him in confusion if he does so.

maybe it's an English thing? we had an visiting instructor from Germany who got very frustrated that people just got bored and wandered off or finished their conversation before lining up and had no idea at all what the Japanese name for tthings we're.

certainly if it was run like a army unit with people jumping to attention and say sir a lot, I wouldn't be there.

karate comes from a very brutal opresive c militaristic culture, that doesn't make karate a bad thing but gloryfying the culture that produced it isn't a good thing, but an occasional bow is ok

 

[Martial D]

Leaving the debate of whether your style is modern or traditional aside, when did you feel you became part of the tradition? This seems to be a question easier answered by those who have stayed in one style for some time but what is your perspective?

When/how did you begin to feel invested in your style beyond your own physical benefits? What have you done to grow? Where do you find your greatest satisfaction in what you do?

I'm with old man jobo on this. All the mystery and cultural roll play has never done it for me. I only care about the science and application.

 

[skribs]

I'm with old man jobo on this. All the mystery and cultural roll play has never done it for me. I only care about the science and application.

To some degree I agree, but I think some of the mystery serves the purpose of not letting students get over their heads.

 

[Balrog]

Leaving the debate of whether your style is modern or traditional aside, when did you feel you became part of the tradition? This seems to be a question easier answered by those who have stayed in one style for some time but what is your perspective?

When/how did you begin to feel invested in your style beyond your own physical benefits? What have you done to grow? Where do you find your greatest satisfaction in what you do?

There's no mystery in the ATA. One of the biggest things that appealed to me beyond the physical training was the emphasis on life skills, such as courtesy, respect, self-control, honor, integrity, etc. Those resonated with me from day one, and when I became an instructor, I could see the difference that those life skills made in young kids' lives. And that made them all the more important.

 

[Danny T]

Tradition?
Just what does that mean?

What definition are you asking about:

- An established or customary pattern of behavior?
There is certainly a lot of such.

- A body of beliefs relating to the past?
There is certainly a lot of such with some.

- The handing down of information by word of mouth or by example (demoing)
There is a huge amount of that.

- Cultural continuity & customs
There is a huge amount of that as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Leaving the debate of whether your style is modern or traditional aside, when did you feel you became part of the tradition? This seems to be a question easier answered by those who have stayed in one style for some time but what is your perspective?

When/how did you begin to feel invested in your style beyond your own physical benefits? What have you done to grow? Where do you find your greatest satisfaction in what you do?

It's a vague question (and I assume purposely so, to let discussion wander where it will), so will get some vague answers. And here's one now!

Partly this depends how you view tradition. I think I get the concept you're talking about (whether others would use the same word for it or not). There are two points I can see in this.

Firstly (actually, it often comes second, but who's counting?), we become part of the tradition when the next generation of instructors talks about us. That can happen while we're active, or when we're no longer actively in the art. In either case, it's a sign of impact (intentional or otherwise), because people are remembering us within the context of the system.

Secondly, when do we start to see ourselves as having that impact? That varies a lot by individual. I think it's usually when someone else's students start responding to what we do (especially if they're our students' students). It can also be when we're contemplating a significant change to our own approach. I know I considered how to make changes in a way that might benefit students that weren't part of my program (assuming some cross-pollination of ideas over time).

 

[jobo]

It's a vague question (and I assume purposely so, to let discussion wander where it will), so will get some vague answers. And here's one now!

Partly this depends how you view tradition. I think I get the concept you're talking about (whether others would use the same word for it or not). There are two points I can see in this.

Firstly (actually, it often comes second, but who's counting?), we become part of the tradition when the next generation of instructors talks about us. That can happen while we're active, or when we're no longer actively in the art. In either case, it's a sign of impact (intentional or otherwise), because people are remembering us within the context of the system.

Secondly, when do we start to see ourselves as having that impact? That varies a lot by individual. I think it's usually when someone else's students start responding to what we do (especially if they're our students' students). It can also be when we're contemplating a significant change to our own approach. I know I considered how to make changes in a way that might benefit students that weren't part of my program (assuming some cross-pollination of ideas over time).

but changing things is the very opposite of tradition, its modernist philosophy, that then only becomes its self tradition if someone else doesn't modernise before it becomes a thing that is done for no logical reason or at least for a reason to which no logic has been applied

 

[Buka]

There's no mystery in the ATA. One of the biggest things that appealed to me beyond the physical training was the emphasis on life skills, such as courtesy, respect, self-control, honor, integrity, etc. Those resonated with me from day one, and when I became an instructor, I could see the difference that those life skills made in young kids' lives. And that made them all the more important.

Truth.

 

[dvcochran]

Leaving the debate of whether your style is modern or traditional aside, when did you feel you became part of the tradition? This seems to be a question easier answered by those who have stayed in one style for some time but what is your perspective?

When/how did you begin to feel invested in your style beyond your own physical benefits? What have you done to grow? Where do you find your greatest satisfaction in what you do?

My intent of the thread was misworded, misunderstood, derailed, take your pick. I have never been as liberal as Jobo. Maybe when I was a color belt I felt like my school/gym wholly owed me and I was required to give nothing back. I could not think big enough at the time. Possibly this is a cultural question but that is not the intent.
Keeping it in the vein of MA and to rephrase, what keeps you going in your given style/system or martial arts in general? Or do you chose to change to another discipline after some time? What is that trigger? When do you feel like your style/system has given enough and it is time for you to give back? How do you do this?
In no way am I talking about mystery or mystic ideology. I never bought in to that nor have I ever been around a group or school/system who did. I have been around Asian instructors all of my MA life and have never had an issue showing respect and deferring to them but, at least to me, that is in no way mystic. Much like the ATA system comments, most styles try to impart all the same principles mentioned. That is a traditional reference. People, usually adults, who do care about such ideas are likely practicing a more modern style.
I straddled the line as I came up in TKD. I frequented PKA fights in Memphis before MMA became mainstream. When TKD became an Olympic sport I was all in; something that did not set very well with my Korean instructor at the time. It was before the idea of martial sport and Martial art as two different things.
Many on the forum have been in the MA's for some time. Some of you are part of old styles and possibly part of old schools. Why? Is it a lack of choice (part of my original journey) or is there more? Why do you choose to stay where you are after 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher Dan? Are you a lower belt who is intrigued by your training? Why?
This is a constant across all styles. This is what I mean by tradition. ​

 

[CB Jones]

Some of you are part of old styles and possibly part of old schools. Why? Is it a lack of choice (part of my original journey) or is there more? Why do you choose to stay where you are after 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher Dan? Are you a lower belt who is intrigued by your training? Why?

For most of the people I know...its because they enjoy it and the people associated with it.

 

[BrendanF]

You have effectively highlighted and and articulated one of the critical distinctions between different traditions and martial cultures.

Many modern systems are entirely skill/attribute based, and as such the development of the skill/attribute trained is the focus. This allows for the commercial mindset you described. Many also develop some degree of cultural/social trappings to go along, but these are typically individual instructors' personalities providing influence, rather than any systemic approach.

The art I study has a 600 year history. My teacher's teacher died thirty years ago. His son has run our branch since. And his youngest son will take over soon (as in, sometime over the next decade or two). I have no place in the tradition, other than as a small piece of this generation's 'collective consciousness' so to speak. I'm not really interested in teaching, and not many in my country are interested in learning.

But I am a part of an amazing group of people. The debt i feel toward my teachers is substantial. When did that happen? I guess after a number of years of showing up repeatedly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but changing things is the very opposite of tradition, its modernist philosophy, that then only becomes its self tradition if someone else doesn't modernise before it becomes a thing that is done for no logical reason or at least for a reason to which no logic has been applied

Everything we call "traditional" now was once not done that way. The traditional way is something we chose to think of as such at some point in time.

More to the point, though, I think my response is addressing the concept the OP was asking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My intent of the thread was misworded, misunderstood, derailed, take your pick. I have never been as liberal as Jobo. Maybe when I was a color belt I felt like my school/gym wholly owed me and I was required to give nothing back. I could not think big enough at the time. Possibly this is a cultural question but that is not the intent.
Keeping it in the vein of MA and to rephrase, what keeps you going in your given style/system or martial arts in general? Or do you chose to change to another discipline after some time? What is that trigger? When do you feel like your style/system has given enough and it is time for you to give back? How do you do this?
In no way am I talking about mystery or mystic ideology. I never bought in to that nor have I ever been around a group or school/system who did. I have been around Asian instructors all of my MA life and have never had an issue showing respect and deferring to them but, at least to me, that is in no way mystic. Much like the ATA system comments, most styles try to impart all the same principles mentioned. That is a traditional reference. People, usually adults, who do care about such ideas are likely practicing a more modern style.
I straddled the line as I came up in TKD. I frequented PKA fights in Memphis before MMA became mainstream. When TKD became an Olympic sport I was all in; something that did not set very well with my Korean instructor at the time. It was before the idea of martial sport and Martial art as two different things.
Many on the forum have been in the MA's for some time. Some of you are part of old styles and possibly part of old schools. Why? Is it a lack of choice (part of my original journey) or is there more? Why do you choose to stay where you are after 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher Dan? Are you a lower belt who is intrigued by your training? Why?
This is a constant across all styles. This is what I mean by tradition. ​

I think for a lot of us it's the sense of community that makes us want to give back. Even if we speak of "the system" or "the art", we really mean "the people". So, we really want to pay forward what someone has done that we appreciated, and we do that by doing what we can for and within the art, which is really just the group of people who practice the same basic principles we do.

 

[jobo]

Everything we call "traditional" now was once not done that way. The traditional way is something we chose to think of as such at some point in time.

More to the point, though, I think my response is addressing the concept the OP was asking about.

a tradition is a pattern of behavior and human in general like patterns, once they have established a pattern they are very reluctant to change it and it then after an unspecified amount of time becomes a tradition that they are then extremely reluctant to change and feel a great sense of loss if that is taken off them.

some traditions have a logical reason why they are so, some used to have a logical reason that no longer applies and others never had any logic at all.

if an art is, as it should be, in a constant process of evolution , then there are no ( few)traditions,very, little stays the same long enough to ever be considered so

if there is a tradition it should be analysed to see if it has any logic or if a better method exists. calling your art traditional is a blanket admission that is not evolving and methods are not being anylised.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

a tradition is a pattern of behavior and human in general like patterns, once they have established a pattern they are very reluctant to change it and it then after an unspecified amount of time becomes a tradition that they are then extremely reluctant to change and feel a great sense of loss if that is taken off them.

some traditions have a logical reason why they are so, some used to have a logical reason that no longer applies and others never had any logic at all.

if an art is, as it should be, in a constant process of evolution , then there are no ( few)traditions,very, little stays the same long enough to ever be considered so

if there is a tradition it should be analysed to see if it has any logic or if a better method exists. calling your art traditional is a blanket admission that is not evolving and methods are not being anylised.

The change, itself can be part of the “tradition” of a system. I’d say that’s the case with BJJ, for instance. To stay true to the traditions of the system, they’d have to keep innovating.

But you’re right that that’s stretching the word a bit. I think the OP intended that thought in the discussion, but I may be wrong.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Tradition is seldom static - it evolves naturally over time. Look at English as a metaphor for a traditional MA style. It has certainly evolved from the time of Shakespeare: Contractions have evolved, spelling has changed, idiomatic expressions come and go and new words have imbedded themselves into the language, either borrowed from other languages (styles) or newly invented to refer to a new concept. And many words have vanished from common usage. But it is still recognizably English.

What makes the "English" tradition is its structure - grammatical principles. Subject, adjective, verb, preposition, etc. are usually set in a given order which may differ from other languages. Also the specificity of the words can differ: Inuit people have many words for snow; Orientals have many words to describe rice, reflecting the importance of these things in their culture and survival. Then, there are territorial accents and even difference in word choices depending on the region: Pop vs soda, Hi vs hey, etc.

So tradition binds a group of people - they speak the same language. It suits their culture and needs. It gives them a reference point for their world view. But within that language is the ability to express many ideas. To the point of this topic referring to when is one "invested" in the tradition - for me, its when one realizes their language/style is capable of expressing a variety of ideas and concepts in a creative and effective way, and appreciates its history, power and beauty.

Just as skilled English writers honor and try to emulate and learn from the skills of past masters such Longfellow, Steinbeck and Lord Byron, martial artists can do the same with Mabuni, Kyan, Miyagi and their progeny.

 

[Buka]

My intent of the thread was misworded, misunderstood, derailed, take your pick. I have never been as liberal as Jobo. Maybe when I was a color belt I felt like my school/gym wholly owed me and I was required to give nothing back. I could not think big enough at the time. Possibly this is a cultural question but that is not the intent.
Keeping it in the vein of MA and to rephrase, what keeps you going in your given style/system or martial arts in general? Or do you chose to change to another discipline after some time? What is that trigger? When do you feel like your style/system has given enough and it is time for you to give back? How do you do this?
In no way am I talking about mystery or mystic ideology. I never bought in to that nor have I ever been around a group or school/system who did. I have been around Asian instructors all of my MA life and have never had an issue showing respect and deferring to them but, at least to me, that is in no way mystic. Much like the ATA system comments, most styles try to impart all the same principles mentioned. That is a traditional reference. People, usually adults, who do care about such ideas are likely practicing a more modern style.
I straddled the line as I came up in TKD. I frequented PKA fights in Memphis before MMA became mainstream. When TKD became an Olympic sport I was all in; something that did not set very well with my Korean instructor at the time. It was before the idea of martial sport and Martial art as two different things.
Many on the forum have been in the MA's for some time. Some of you are part of old styles and possibly part of old schools. Why? Is it a lack of choice (part of my original journey) or is there more? Why do you choose to stay where you are after 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher Dan? Are you a lower belt who is intrigued by your training? Why?
This is a constant across all styles. This is what I mean by tradition. ​

Keeping it in the vein of MA and to rephrase, what keeps you going in your given style/system or martial arts in general? Or do you chose to change to another discipline after some time? What is that trigger? When do you feel like your style/system has given enough and it is time for you to give back? How do you do this?

I've always trained American Karate, but I've always trained other styles by happenstance. How is that possible?
Made a lot of friends in the arts, a lot of them had schools. "Why don't you come down and train sometime?" So I did. Never once did I turn down that offer. As the years went by....I was still doing that.

At one point, happenstance raised it's head higher. Somebody bought the building my dojo was in and we were evicted. There were a group of us who weren't about to stop training, so we went to the different dojos of friends, regardless of style. We tried to schedule it with sparring nights and everybody benefited. After several years I opened a dojo. We were heavy into competitions. Made even more friends - and went to more different schools, or they would come to our place. We all learned so much from each other over the next ten years.

To me, what is important - every single time we found a better way to do something, or a technique we liked, it became part of our art, which was in a constant flux. When we were fist introduced to BJJ we were blown away. How could we not make at least part of what we were learning, especially the principles, part of our system? That was back in the early nineties. It was a big deal to us, a big deal we will be eternally grateful for.



Many on the forum have been in the MA's for some time. Some of you are part of old styles and possibly part of old schools. Why? Is it a lack of choice (part of my original journey) or is there more? Why do you choose to stay where you are after 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher Dan?

It's like @CB Jones said, because it's fun, we enjoy it, it's what we do. As for the rank thing, some of my teachers promoted me up the dan ladder until I realized I didn't want to be part of that any more and politely refused. I had been around long enough to do that at that time, over twenty years. Everyone understood, nobody really gave a hoot. The final nail in that coffin was when I met "Master Key". Tht's how he introduced himself to me. he was nineteen years old.

 

[jobo]

Tradition is seldom static - it evolves naturally over time. Look at English as a metaphor for a traditional MA style. It has certainly evolved from the time of Shakespeare: Contractions have evolved, spelling has changed, idiomatic expressions come and go and new words have imbedded themselves into the language, either borrowed from other languages (styles) or newly invented to refer to a new concept. And many words have vanished from common usage. But it is still recognizably English.

What makes the "English" tradition is its structure - grammatical principles. Subject, adjective, verb, preposition, etc. are usually set in a given order which may differ from other languages. Also the specificity of the words can differ: Inuit people have many words for snow; Orientals have many words to describe rice, reflecting the importance of these things in their culture and survival. Then, there are territorial accents and even difference in word choices depending on the region: Pop vs soda, Hi vs hey, etc.

So tradition binds a group of people - they speak the same language. It suits their culture and needs. It gives them a reference point for their world view. But within that language is the ability to express many ideas. To the point of this topic referring to when is one "invested" in the tradition - for me, its when one realizes their language/style is capable of expressing a variety of ideas and concepts in a creative and effective way, and appreciates its history, power and beauty.

Just as skilled English writers honor and try to emulate and learn from the skills of past masters such Longfellow, Steinbeck and Lord Byron, martial artists can do the same with Mabuni, Kyan, Miyagi and their progeny.

well no, English is dynamic, everything has changed from Elizabethan times, as you may have noticed if you try reading Shakespeare with out an introductory course, and of course shakes spear has been modernised so it makes a modicum of sense.

a better comparison would be French, that has refused to progress, to the extent that they have a department to ban words like carpark and weekend, that where tradition gets you a dying language or a dying art

 

[dvcochran]

Keeping it in the vein of MA and to rephrase, what keeps you going in your given style/system or martial arts in general? Or do you chose to change to another discipline after some time? What is that trigger? When do you feel like your style/system has given enough and it is time for you to give back? How do you do this?

I've always trained American Karate, but I've always trained other styles by happenstance. How is that possible?
Made a lot of friends in the arts, a lot of them had schools. "Why don't you come down and train sometime?" So I did. Never once did I turn down that offer. As the years went by....I was still doing that.

At one point, happenstance raised it's head higher. Somebody bought the building my dojo was in and we were evicted. There were a group of us who weren't about to stop training, so we went to the different dojos of friends, regardless of style. We tried to schedule it with sparring nights and everybody benefited. After several years I opened a dojo. We were heavy into competitions. Made even more friends - and went to more different schools, or they would come to our place. We all learned so much from each other over the next ten years.

To me, what is important - every single time we found a better way to do something, or a technique we liked, it became part of our art, which was in a constant flux. When we were fist introduced to BJJ we were blown away. How could we not make at least part of what we were learning, especially the principles, part of our system? That was back in the early nineties. It was a big deal to us, a big deal we will be eternally grateful for.


Many on the forum have been in the MA's for some time. Some of you are part of old styles and possibly part of old schools. Why? Is it a lack of choice (part of my original journey) or is there more? Why do you choose to stay where you are after 1st, 2nd, 3rd or higher Dan?

It's like @CB Jones said, because it's fun, we enjoy it, it's what we do. As for the rank thing, some of my teachers promoted me up the dan ladder until I realized I didn't want to be part of that any more and politely refused. I had been around long enough to do that at that time, over twenty years. Everyone understood, nobody really gave a hoot. The final nail in that coffin was when I met "Master Key". Tht's how he introduced himself to me. he was nineteen years old.

There were not a ton of choices close to me but I did much the same with friends I made through tournaments over the years. Interacted a lot with a couple Shotokan,TSD, and a Kung Fu school. Then I found out that Tuhon McGrath was going to be in Nashville teaching Kali and I was hooked. The timing was perfect because I was totally burned out with the tournament circuit after the trials. I made it to 1s Dan but I was never really vest, at least not the way I am in TKD. I have often wondered if I may have completely burned out had I not transitioned to a style very, very different from TKD for a while. When Tuhon McGrath left Nashville I eventually got back into TKD actively. I was always in the background with ownership but to me that really doesn't count.
There are always going to be "Master Key's" , whether it is in MA or making donuts. The wisdom is in not getting sucked into such foolishness. Hell, we have had a bad "Master" within our system. He just could not beat alcohol and let it carry over into classes.
I buy into the "one bad apple" way of thinking. There is so much rich and good heritage in traditional styles we should not let the knuckleheads inside or outside of MA's, whether traditional or modern, take that away. That never means staying stoic and stagnant. Like you did, we should all learn from wherever we can, validate, and adopt what makes sense. Can that be done without eliminating traditional ideas? Yes, I think it can.