When did same-gender relations become "wrong"?

[Bob Hubbard]

Having recently seen Alexander, and Troy, and seen the more recent events in the US to discriminate against same-gender couples, I began to wonder...when did it become "wrong"?

Based on the rough timelines, 6-8,000 years ago it was ok, 2,000 years ago it was ok, so where and when did the idea form that suggests a wrongness to them?

Both Achillies and Alexander were what we would call "bi" today, yet managed to be proclaimed great warriors and leaders. Even in the 1500's, (I think) there were leading individuals like Lord Byron who 'swung both ways'. So, I have to wonder.

Where, when and why?
What religions dictate against same-gender relations?
etc.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Even for the Greeks, same-sex sexual relationships were not "technically" encouraged, although it was an accepted part of the culture. Men were suppossed to have a wife at home, and possibly get some progeny going, but could form relationships with other men - especially younger men they were teaching - since women were, of course, so inferior.

But of course, it was common practice for same-sex sexual relationships to occur.

I think some of the attitiudes about same-sex relationships is the disgust people had for someone assuming a less powerful role than what they were born with - i.e. same-sex relationships between men were sometimes OK during the early middle ages, but the "dominant" man was less shamed than the "receptive" man.

Lesbianism was not specifically prohibited in early Middle Age convents - the sexually aggressive woman sometimes being considered to be emulating a man - which was, of course, better than being a woman.

But those are just parts of the puzzle.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Roughly speaking, it seems to be tied to the late Renaissance, the growth of Protestantism, and the appearance of things like sumptuary laws (governed male and female dress) and early biological notions of sexual difference.

The very general academic take is that much of this was an attack on femininity in all its forms, coupled with an insistence upon re-organizing the Family as a more-productive unit as capitalism developed.

You might scope out Foucault's "History of Sexuality," books; some issues of a journal called, "Representations;" some of the "A History of Everyday Life," volumes. I'm not up on gay history, so can't recommend anything there....hm, maybe I'll look, which is what guys like us are spozed to do.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

That's interesting... I have read some of the "History of Everyday Life", I think - really quite good stuff.

I used to study more on the Byzantine/medieval/early Rennaissance times, so anything after that, until my lifetime, I'm more ignorant of it.

I would believe the "attack on femininity" angle - that being perceived as feminine (read: weak, receptive, less perfect, sinful, stupid, etc - depending on the time you lived in) was so horrific for men that same-sex relationships had that cast of horror over them.

 

[MisterMike]

Seems there is no single answer on when and why, but it looks like it is based on culture and values, or lack there of depending on your viewpoint.

Interestingly how some suggestions point to male dominance, power, sexual deviation and abnormal psychology as causes for the behavior to happen in the first place.

Report: Pedophilia more common among 'gays'
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27431

The Problem of Pedophilia
http://www.narth.com/docs/pedophNEW.html

HIV cases rise among U.S. gay men
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3076793/

Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3&v=PRINT

Same sex relations may be viewed as an attack on values, but what is more damaging is the promiscuous lifestyle that many same sex couples persue. Of course this may be only part of the "puzzle" as to why it is shunned.

 

[Ping898]

Same sex relations may be viewed as an attack on values, but what is more damaging is the promiscuous lifestyle that many same sex couples persue. Of course this may be only part of the "puzzle" as to shy it is shunned.

I'd like to see one honest piece of evidence that a homosexual is any more promiscuous than any heterosexual.

And though I don't know when it was decided that same sex pairings were wrong, my interpretation of events is that it was always "accepted" as long as it was in the background. Most men had a wife and produced his heirs and then was involved with another man on the side. Something that was known and tolerated but not discussed or necessarily accepted. There are of course always exceptions to the "rule". Things seemed to have gotten bad and volatile when gays started to be more open and stopped hiding who they were. I think the AIDS crisis in the 80's/90's when we didn't know what the disease really was, what caused it, but saw it intially spreading among gay men also made things worse and we saw a dramatic decline in any acceptance. This is just the way I see events as having taken place.


I would also offer this counter to Mr. Mike's articles, especially related to pedophilia.

http://www.rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/PedoMyth.html


Here are some findings from the scientific peer-reviewed journal, "Pediatrics" published in July of 1994. The study was done by Dr. Carole Jenny of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center. The subjects were 269 sexually abused children seen at Denver Children's Hospital over the course of one year.

​

*1 in 219 girls was molested by a lesbian * 1 out of 50 boys by a gay male.*About 8 in 10 girls were molested by a man who was or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the child's mother or another relative. *3 out of 4 boys were abused by males in heterosexual relationships with female relatives. ​

​

2% of the boys in the study were molested by gay males. ​

​

98% of the boys in the study were molested by heterosexuals. Of that number, 75% were molested by heterosexual males KNOWN TO THE VICTIMS in an incestuous scenario.​

​

0.05% of the girls in the study were molested by a lesbian.

​

​

99.5% of the girls in the study were molested by heterosexuals. Of that number, 80% were molested by heterosexual males KNOWN TO THE VICTIMS in an incestuous scenario. ​

​

If you think that study is unique, I invite you to investigate some more references, all of which report parallel numbers.​

​

Groth, A. Nicholas, and H. Jean Birnbaum, 1978 "Adult Sexual Orientation and Attraction to Underage Persons", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7, 175.​

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"Suggests that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male." [p 609]​

​

Newton, David E., 1978 "Homosexual Behavior and Child Molestation: A Review of the Evidence", Adolescence, 13, 29.​

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"Existing studies provide no reason to believe that anything other than a random connection exists between homosexual behavior and child molestation. The typical offender is a heterosexual male." [p 610]​

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Interesting sites you link to, Mike. They all seem to have their agendas.

Saying someone has "no values" is a nice way of dismissing someone else's viewpoint, and holding yourself to be superior.

I'm not sure why you cited the rise in HIV among gay men as a comment on homosexuality in general.

In terms of promiscuity - gay men are stereotyped as being sexually promiscuious, although I have a feeling that they fall within the range of heterosexual men out there who are the more traditional "skirt-chasers".

Lesbians, in contrast, tend to have a very small number of partners over their lifetimes.

Perhaps it has to do with testosterone poisoning of some men in general?

 

[MisterMike]

Well, I could have posted the direct URL's to the researcher's sites, but this was easier. I'd be curious to your version of their agenda as compared to the rainbowalliance's. :uhyeah:

..and I disn't mention anyone as having no values. The "depending on you're viewpoint" line was general, not meant to express my own.

Oh well, let the red marks fly..LOL

If someone thinks they can debunk the numbers or methodology of these reports, by ALL *Edited to conform to MT's Rules & Policy* means. But if we're gonna talk about it, let's get it all on the table shall we?

 

[Bester]

I think it was when Adam met Steve, and Eve was upset because Alice was not created yet.

 

[punisher73]

I think it would vary even from culture to culture even in the ancient times. People have given examples of the ancient Greeks and their view (pointless trivia time...the word lesbian comes from the greek isle of lesbos). But, if you go to Israel and the Jews you will see the in their culture it was viewed as a sin punishable by death.

In fact going through old jewish law in the Bible you will see that to immasculate yourself was also a sin and proper temple procedure called for "testicle checkers" to allow people into the male only areas.

Since most of western society now is influenced by the judeo-christian beliefs/values I would say this is where it came from, in my opinion. As their influence spread and more people were converted the view also probably spread.

 

[Bester]

I would tend to agree.



"Testicle checkers", sounds like a glamourous job that.

 

[Phoenix44]

Do people honestly believe that if you list a bunch of websites, then it legitimizes their personal beliefs? The problem with the internet is that you have to look closely at which information is authoritative and which is garbage. ANYONE can have a website. I have 3 myself, and my site that deals with media and political issues cites more authoritative and reliable sources than those I've seen listed as "documentation" above.

For example, there's this "authoritative" citation:

Report: Pedophilia more common among 'gays'
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/a...RTICLE_ID=27431

This cites the renowned author, Judith Reisman PhD, president of "The Institute for Media Education," her own personal organization, represented by her own personal website, drjudithreisman.org. She wrote and self-published the authoritative tome, "Kinsey, Sex and Fraud" which is sold mainly by fundamentalist Christian organizations. Is Reisman's PhD in medicine? Psychology? Sociology even? Nope. She has a doctorate in mass communications. And communicate she does.

 

[peligro1]

This is just my opinion, but I don't think they've ever been "right". Sure you can plead ignorance before Christ and the Bible, but that's really a terrible excuse. I believe they've always been frowned upon.

 

[heretic888]

This is just my opinion, but I don't think they've ever been "right". Sure you can plead ignorance before Christ and the Bible, but that's really a terrible excuse. I believe they've always been frowned upon.

In which cultures, praytell??

In cultural anthropology, you'll find that some cultures openly accept homosexuality, some wantonly discriminate against it, some tolerate it "in the background", and some have no idea what it is (a very unusual situation)!!

Humanity is a motley crew. Deal with it.

In regards to the religion angle, though, it is true that most (if not all) of the world's major religions prohibit (or at least advise against) "sexual immorality" --- Buddhism included. Then again, all those moral prescriptions were before the Age of Reason.

Laterz.

 

[peligro1]

Someone just got kicked out of my work for being homosexual.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What do the laws say about it in El Salvador?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Someone just got kicked out of my work for being homosexual.

That's a shame. How was the person "found out"? Does this person have any rights under the law to get their job back/get a new job?

 

[PeachMonkey]

Is Reisman's PhD in medicine? Psychology? Sociology even? Nope. She has a doctorate in mass communications. And communicate she does.

Awww, c'mon, Phoenix... clearly a doctor in mass communications with an anti-gay agenda has more credibility than an institute for sexual research at a major Big-Ten state-sponsored University with some of the finest psychological and sociological researchers in the world!

You're clearly a a biased elitist.

 

[PeachMonkey]

What do the laws say about it in El Salvador?

Many Latin cultures, being strongly Catholic, are explicitly anti-homosexual, both legally and otherwise.

Perhaps the World Net Daily would approve.

 

[rmcrobertson]

After flipping through the sites suggested, one can say that same-sex relations became wrong right about the time that bigots learned how to couch their hatreds in pseudo-scientific terms.

It's one thing to have moral precepts that teach homosexuality is wrong. It's quite another to summon up a network of phony, ginned-up, "studies," that attempt to provide scientific justification for one's moral beliefs.