What Style is Best For Real Self Defense?

[drop bear]

I totally get what you are saying

I guess it has or at some point someone thought it was a good idea to promote the more flowing and as you say wishy washy

I would say that if you'd ever experienced Chiba sensei or Saito sensei put you on the floor then umm it was not wishy washy lol....

Possibly not. But I also doubt it would be the result of some sort of magic Aiki either.

I have sparred some old judoka. Those guys are made of nails.

The exact opposite of what I see Aikido trying to achieve. And as a side note I am against aiki a bit as I get older. Because aiki in my environment equals scramble. And I just can't out scramble a guy half my age.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Possibly not. But I also doubt it would be the result of some sort of magic Aiki either.

I have sparred some old judoka. Those guys are made of nails.

The exact opposite of what I see Aikido trying to achieve. And as a side note I am against aiki a bit as I get older. Because aiki in my environment equals scramble. And I just can't out scramble a guy half my age.

That's an interesting observation. The better I get at what I call aiki (maybe not the same thing you're talking about), the more moments seem to slow down for me. I'm not in the chaos you're sometimes in, though, so that might be a difference, too.

 

[dvcochran]

A lot of good advise. I would start by asking what is your experience(s)? Can you be specific to what you are looking for based on the past or expected future? Can you put in one sentence or paragraph? It is a big question you are asking I think.

 

[oldwarrior]

Possibly not. But I also doubt it would be the result of some sort of magic Aiki either.

I have sparred some old judoka. Those guys are made of nails.

The exact opposite of what I see Aikido trying to achieve. And as a side note I am against aiki a bit as I get older. Because aiki in my
environment equals scramble. And I just can't out scramble a guy half my age.

I do accept what you are saying and each has a path that works for them and that is the way of most things in life not just the Martial Arts.

As I think I said Aikido was born from a different age and so some of the "ideas" and the thinking behind them may and do seem strange ... Aikido is more of a whole philosophy than just an Art on it's own and the Aiki or Ki side is a big part of that ...That does come from the founders beliefs and from how he looked towards life and conflict. Also WWII did have an effect on Aikido imo a very big effect but that is just my opinion.

One thing Aikido can and does offer is how to blend and use your own "body mechanics" and that of your opponents to your advantage and it will over many many many years of study enhance spacial awareness. That said for a straight out off the bat self defense system no it is not the best and never will be.

 

[oldwarrior]

That's an interesting observation. The better I get at what I call aiki (maybe not the same thing you're talking about), the more moments seem to slow down for me. I'm not in the chaos you're sometimes in, though, so that might be a difference, too.

Very interesting as I too feel the more I immerse myself in Aikido the more Intune I feel with that around and yes things do seem to slow down and become less of a struggle and more of a flow (there again I may be on a different page to what you are meaning)

But still interesting to see other students of the Arts observations and thoughts as all is relevant

 

[oftheherd1]

And if he wants to stay reasonably close to the Aikido techniques, maybe Hapkido.

As I read the OP, he was looking for a Tai Chi school that was combat oriented. Perhaps he changed that along the way.

As to your comment, I have never studied Aikido so it is difficult for me to say anything about it with any real knowledge. But I have always thought that Aikido was more focused on joint manipulation into throws. It was not interested in hurting you, but if it did that was on the person who started a confrontation. If you got tired of being thrown about and left, that was fine. That was the goal. Hapkido is also defensive in philosophy. However, Hapkido figures they don't want to fight. If you force an issue, Hapkido doesn't want to have to do it again. Therefore, pain and damage to the opponent is to ensure they don't have to do it again. Hapkido will use anything that presents itself as a defense; joint manipulation, joint dislocations, throws, kicks, strikes, pressure points. Any one of those or a combination.

I say that to ask if you really think the techniques in Hapkido and Aikido are similar? Sometimes I have thought so, and other times I think they are very different. I once mentioned to my GM that I thought Hapkido and Aikido about the same. He was quite succinct but emphatic that they were not.

 

[Ryback]

First of all hello everyone, I just joined the forum a few days ago and I've been scrolling through some very interesting threads.
Since this is a thread about self defense, I thought I would state my opinion and....introduce myself.
Well, according to my experience of course, Aikido is a martial art that can be used for self defense, if the practitioner is studying it in such way... It's probably more of an approach matter than a specific school or style (though I don't really like the word "style" in reference to Aikido).
It's true that schools under specific teachers are more concerned about the martial aspect of the art than others (e.g Shioda Sensei, Seagal Sensei and more) but I think that if one is to learn the basic principles and the techniques of the art he could work his way to practical application anyway...
Well, that is my opinion of course, I hope it is a helpful contribution to the discussion...

 

[now disabled]

First of all hello everyone, I just joined the forum a few days ago and I've been scrolling through some very interesting threads.
Since this is a thread about self defense, I thought I would state my opinion and....introduce myself.
Well, according to my experience of course, Aikido is a martial art that can be used for self defense, if the practitioner is studying it in such way... It's probably more of an approach matter than a specific school or style (though I don't really like the word "style" in reference to Aikido).
It's true that schools under specific teachers are more concerned about the martial aspect of the art than others (e.g Shioda Sensei, Seagal Sensei and more) but I think that if one is to learn the basic principles and the techniques of the art he could work his way to practical application anyway...
Well, that is my opinion of course, I hope it is a helpful contribution to the discussion...

Welcome

I get where you are coming from totally

Aikido does get a bad rap in certain circles for sure lol.

I know what you are saying regarding Seagal and Shioda however do bear in mind that the later did leave before the last war from Ueshiba's teaching (yes ok he did go back briefly and he never really severed links totally as his last ranking was awarded to him by Ueshiba and that was after he had formed the Yoshinkan and if memory serves he had already started the Senshusei course (ok for the police at that point) so his Aikido was different as it was the pre war Aikido) The former I don't know where he actually developed his style from, yes he did study Aikikai at the honbu but not under the founder (that is a myth he kinda put out - sorry but it it not true-) He was the real deal at one time and yes he does hold the rank he claims with out doubt, I just have a few issues with who he says taught him ( imo it not the second doshu style and Shioda shihan was long gone) I just am not sure where his Tenshin ryu came from unless it was his own personal studies that took it there, which is uite possible as he did teach in Japan tho of the vids I have seen it was slightly different to what he latterly taught but that my opinion.

Now he needs to lose a truck load of weight as if he took ukemi now he'd kinda ummm go through the dojo floor (sorry but jeez he is seriously big now) and the last I saw him trying to teach it was not good at all as he couldn't even get into seiza or move properly

 

[Ryback]

Welcome

I get where you are coming from totally

Aikido does get a bad rap in certain circles for sure lol.

I know what you are saying regarding Seagal and Shioda however do bear in mind that the later did leave before the last war from Ueshiba's teaching (yes ok he did go back briefly and he never really severed links totally as his last ranking was awarded to him by Ueshiba and that was after he had formed the Yoshinkan and if memory serves he had already started the Senshusei course (ok for the police at that point) so his Aikido was different as it was the pre war Aikido) The former I don't know where he actually developed his style from, yes he did study Aikikai at the honbu but not under the founder (that is a myth he kinda put out - sorry but it it not true-) He was the real deal at one time and yes he does hold the rank he claims with out doubt, I just have a few issues with who he says taught him ( imo it not the second doshu style and Shioda shihan was long gone) I just am not sure where his Tenshin ryu came from unless it was his own personal studies that took it there, which is uite possible as he did teach in Japan tho of the vids I have seen it was slightly different to what he latterly taught but that my opinion.

Now he needs to lose a truck load of weight as if he took ukemi now he'd kinda ummm go through the dojo floor (sorry but jeez he is seriously big now) and the last I saw him trying to teach it was not good at all as he couldn't even get into seiza or move properly

I totally agree with your post.... Shioda left o'sensei early on but that doesn't really mean anything to me because I believe Aikido is not only what happened after the war, it begins long before it was even called Aikido, through a huge chain of warriors before O'sensei... Minamoto No Yoshimitsu, Sokaku Takeda, O'sensei himself were very important links of the chain but none of them was more important than the art itself... So I don't believe that Aikido should be considered as founded by o'sensei... He was just one of the most recent links, a great warrior perhaps but no single person should be considered as a founder of any martial art... So, Takeda, Shioda, Obata...are Aikido related persons, at least for me.
As for Steven Seagal Sensei... Well, what can I say, you are absolutely right... That's why he will always be my biggest inspiration apart from my own Sensei who is my main inspiration... Because Seagal Sensei is clearly showing to us that even the greatest can fall back if he gets too comfortable.
That's why I always try to copy his earlier technical skills (as much as I can) and avoid his later mistakes...
As for Seagal Sensei's background :
He was in and out of Japan while o'sensei was alive, he has seen him teach, he was never taught directly by him,he doesn't lie it's a misunderstanding that he has clarified many times.
He was an inside student at Hombu Dojo back in the days of Kishomaru that's true and he was a student of Tohei Sensei but they parted ways when Tohei created his own organization... In the early days of Tenshin dojo he was merely teaching a ki-aikido kind of approach, same as Tohei, but he worked his way through a practical approach by studying and modifying the techniques further, there are witnesses to that, one of them is Haruo Matsuoka Sensei who has been his first Uke for years....
His first contact with Aikido had been made in the states prior to all that at Orange Aikikai under Harry Kiyoshi Ishisaka Sensei, but he was in Japan when he says he was and he was the first westerner to open a dojo in Japan, in Osaka.
Although he could have used his Hollywood fame to sell his Aikido as his own Ryu he is maintaining until now that there is no Tenshin Aikido, he is under Aikikai. Tenshin is the name of his dojo but many of his students used as a style name to advertise themselves while he is refusing to do so...
Sorry for the long and a bit off topic post...

 

[now disabled]

I totally agree with your post.... Shioda left o'sensei early on but that doesn't really mean anything to me because I believe Aikido is not only what happened after the war, it begins long before it was even called Aikido, through a huge chain of warriors before O'sensei... Minamoto No Yoshimitsu, Sokaku Takeda, O'sensei himself were very important links of the chain but none of them was more important than the art itself... So I don't believe that Aikido should be considered as founded by o'sensei... He was just one of the most recent links, a great warrior perhaps but no single person should be considered as a founder of any martial art... So, Takeda, Shioda, Obata...are Aikido related persons, at least for me.
As for Steven Seagal Sensei... Well, what can I say, you are absolutely right... That's why he will always be my biggest inspiration apart from my own Sensei who is my main inspiration... Because Seagal Sensei is clearly showing to us that even the greatest can fall back if he gets too comfortable.
That's why I always try to copy his earlier technical skills (as much as I can) and avoid his later mistakes...
As for Seagal Sensei's background :
He was in and out of Japan while o'sensei was alive, he has seen him teach, he was never taught directly by him,he doesn't lie it's a misunderstanding that he has clarified many times.
He was an inside student at Hombu Dojo back in the days of Kishomaru that's true and he was a student of Tohei Sensei but they parted ways when Tohei created his own organization... In the early days of Tenshin dojo he was merely teaching a ki-aikido kind of approach, same as Tohei, but he worked his way through a practical approach by studying and modifying the techniques further, there are witnesses to that, one of them is Haruo Matsuoka Sensei who has been his first Uke for years....
His first contact with Aikido had been made in the states prior to all that at Orange Aikikai under Harry Kiyoshi Ishisaka Sensei, but he was in Japan when he says he was and he was the first westerner to open a dojo in Japan, in Osaka.
Although he could have used his Hollywood fame to sell his Aikido as his own Ryu he is maintaining until now that there is no Tenshin Aikido, he is under Aikikai. Tenshin is the name of his dojo but many of his students used as a style name to advertise themselves while he is refusing to do so...
Sorry for the long and a bit off topic post...

Your going back a bit lol with Minamoto No Yoshimitsu

I agree and never will doubt that Seagal was at one time the real deal

I doubt if the second Doshu had much effect on him as his style is very different

 

[Ryback]

Your going back a bit lol with Minamoto No Yoshimitsu

I agree and never will doubt that Seagal was at one time the real deal

I doubt if the second Doshu had much effect on him as his style is very different

Hahaha, you are right I'm going a bit back but he had contributed a lot to the concept of Aiki...
Oh, of course, the second Doshu has absolutely nothing to do with Seagal's style, what I meant was that Seagal was there during Kishomaru's "leadership" of the Hombu Dojo but I agree that he had no effect on Seagal's style.... It's a very different approach to the art.

 

[now disabled]

Hahaha, you are right I'm going a bit back but he had contributed a lot to the concept of Aiki...
Oh, of course, the second Doshu has absolutely nothing to do with Seagal's style, what I meant was that Seagal was there during Kishomaru's "leadership" of the Hombu Dojo but I agree that he had no effect on Seagal's style.... It's a very different approach to the art.

I don't know if I can make the stretch back to Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu. I am not knocking you btw as I'm just a bit on the fence as far as that.

 

[hoshin1600]

He was in and out of Japan while o'sensei was alive, he has seen him teach, he was never taught directly by him,he doesn't lie it's a misunderstanding that he has clarified many times.
He was an inside student at Hombu Dojo back in the days of Kishomaru that's true and he was a student of Tohei Sensei but they parted ways when Tohei created his own organization... In the early days of Tenshin dojo he was merely teaching a ki-aikido kind of approach, same as Tohei, but he worked his way through a practical approach by studying and modifying the techniques further, there are witnesses to that, one of them is Haruo Matsuoka Sensei who has been his first Uke for years....
His first contact with Aikido had been made in the states prior to all that at Orange Aikikai under Harry Kiyoshi Ishisaka Sensei, but he was in Japan when he says he was and he was the first westerner to open a dojo in Japan, in Osaka.

you say Seagal is your hero of sorts..
so i wont bust your bubble to hard but your history and my history dont match. i was a big fan of his way back he was one of the reasons i looked into Aikido. then i started training, i got a lot of inside stories from seniors and ...well...i was very disappointed. Seagals actions speak of his character. Google can provide pages of news articles on him. i dont need to address them, but his character, actions and the history about himself that he tells has left me ....disappointed to say the least.

 

[Ryback]

you say Seagal is your hero of sorts..
so i wont bust your bubble to hard but your history and my history dont match. i was a big fan of his way back he was one of the reasons i looked into Aikido. then i started training, i got a lot of inside stories from seniors and ...well...i was very disappointed. Seagals actions speak of his character. Google can provide pages of news articles on him. i dont need to address them, but his character, actions and the history about himself that he tells has left me ....disappointed to say the least.

Well, don't worry it's not about busting my bubble.... I'm studying Aikido for the last 20 years so it's not like I'm an overenthousiastic fan of Seagal because of his action films persona... So anyone is free to state his opinion, experience and point of view.
I understand what you mean about his character and actions I've heard some rumours too but as far as I know, many students who have been with him in the past would follow him again if they had to choose today... And one of them has told me in person... By the way, I have become the reason the thread has gone way off topic, so please forgive me for that...

 

[Ryback]

I don't know if I can make the stretch back to Minamoto-no-Yoshimitsu. I am not knocking you btw as I'm just a bit on the fence as far as that.

I would never think you are knocking me simply because you speak your mind and you say your opinion, it's welcome of course!!

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Ryback.

 

[hoshin1600]

He was in and out of Japan while o'sensei was alive, he has seen him teach, he was never taught directly by him,he doesn't lie it's a misunderstanding that he has clarified many times.

so here is the problem with that...
in order for Seagal to have even seen O Sensei he would have had to move to Japan before he graduated from high school, never mind the year he spent in Fullerton college.
My teacher was Fumio Toyoda who was assistant instructor and Uchideshi at hombu dojo at that time and he had told me Seagal was never there at that time.

 

[Ryback]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Ryback.

Thanks a lot, it's nice to share my thoughts here and read all the other members opinions, thoughts and experiences!!

 

[Ryback]

so here is the problem with that...
in order for Seagal to have even seen O Sensei he would have had to move to Japan before he graduated from high school, never mind the year he spent in Fullerton college.
My teacher was Fumio Toyoda who was assistant instructor and Uchideshi at hombu dojo at that time and he had told me Seagal was never there at that time.

Seagal's father was traveling a lot to Japan back then and he was taking his son with him sometimes... You are correct, he was probably still very young but he was already studying Aikido with Ishisaka Sensei in Orange Aikikai and during his short travels to Japan he had been at some of o'sensei's teachings but o'sensei was already very Ill, it was just before he retired and then died, so this must have been around 1968 or something. Since Steven Seagal was born in 1952 he was about 16 years old at the time. Of course, it is natural I guess that Fumio Toyoda Sensei, who was already a teacher by then, wouldn't have noticed a young visiting beginner such as Seagal was back then... It was later that he moved in Japan for good to become an inside student and for that there are a lot of witnesses, even some that remember he used to be playing the guitar already in the early to mid 70s...
I'm not taking anyone's side, I'm merely stating the facts as I know them, but of course I wasn't there...

 

[now disabled]

Seagal's father was traveling a lot to Japan back then and he was taking his son with him sometimes... You are correct, he was probably still very young but he was already studying Aikido with Ishisaka Sensei in Orange Aikikai and during his short travels to Japan he had been at some of o'sensei's teachings but o'sensei was already very Ill, it was just before he retired and then died, so this must have been around 1968 or something. Since Steven Seagal was born in 1952 he was about 16 years old at the time. Of course, it is natural I guess that Fumio Toyoda Sensei, who was already a teacher by then, wouldn't have noticed a young visiting beginner such as Seagal was back then... It was later that he moved in Japan for good to become an inside student and for that there are a lot of witnesses, even some that remember he used to be playing the guitar already in the early to mid 70s...
I'm not taking anyone's side, I'm merely stating the facts as I know them, but of course I wasn't there...

I don't want to upset more but there are other Sensei who dispute Seagal's claims. One has gone on record saying that he was at the Honbu yes but he was not there when he claims.

O'sensei died April 1969 in Iwama,