What is the cash value of "Master Keys"?

[howardr]

Calling all Masters of the Master Keys!

I've just read some of the recent messages on the subject of Master Keys. They are all interesting, but for purposes of this post, I'd like to leave aside whether there is a single set of Master Keys for each type of basic or multiple Keys, whether there are only Master Key moves or are there also Master Key techniques, etc.

What I'd like to know is what exactly is the "cash value" of Master Keys (again anything that you would place under this concept: moves, techniques, etc.)? In other words, rather than another post debating what they are, I'd like to ask what exactly do they get you practically?

For instance, take two Kenpo clones and one day one of the clones suddenly "gets it," and grasps the whole Master Key perspective. In what ways will the enlightened clone be practically different now from his unenlightened brother? For those that really understand and have personally internalized the Master Key perspective (and the requisite physical skills), how did that change you specifically in the way you execute Kenpo, how did it affect your self-defense prowess, etc.? I.e., do the Master Keys help you fight better, be more spontaneous, quicker, or what, and if so, how exactly do they perform these functions?

Thanks, Howard

 

[dcence]

What I'd like to know is what exactly is the "cash value" of Master Keys

Excellent question -- cha - CHING. Though I am no master, I will respond --

Concisely, Master Keys are the vehicle to translate what you have learned in one instance and apply it to another different situation.

Now for the reason why I say that:

IMO, Kenpo is not X number of techniques, sets, forms etc. Kenpo is what those techniques, sets, forms, etc. teach. If one has learned the entire system, but does not understand what the system is supposed to teach, the very essence of the system, then they have simply learned X number of moves. If the student has actually learned what the system teaches, but cannot apply it to other situations, then he is no better off than the guy who didn't learn this.

Let me give you an example. I can give you a cake and you can eat it once. But if I give you the recipe, you can make another as many times as you like, but only exactly like it. However, if I teach you to bake (the master keys of culinary arts), you can make that cake and many others. The cake is one technique. The recipe consists of a "knowledge" of the technique's prinicples. The master keys are an "understanding" of how to translate that knowledge into other similar, but different situations.

In Kenpo, we don't have a technique for every situation. (Oh my gosh, where is the technique against the left handed club attack that is neither a horizontal roundhouse or a vertical overhead but on the diagonal in between? Where is the technique against the left side kick? Etc.) The curriculum is there to teach the underlying principles that will assist in every situation. Those principles are contained in master keys which allow you to take limited knowledge and translate it to many situations.

Derek

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by dcence
Excellent question -- cha - CHING.
Concisely, Master Keys are the vehicle that will allow you to take limited knowledge and translate what you have learned in one instance and apply it to many different situations.
Derek

Wow, that is brilliant. Thanks Derek!

I utilize the MK's as an additional tool to help teach and demonstrate the systems simplicity yet unlimited options.

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

That was a truly outstanding post Mr. Ence, I'm going to go subscribe to MT magazine right now. I think that post was almost worth $12 by itself.
:karate:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by howardr
Calling all Masters of the Master Keys!

I've just read some of the recent messages on the subject of Master Keys. They are all interesting, but for purposes of this post, I'd like to leave aside whether there is a single set of Master Keys for each type of basic or multiple Keys, whether there are only Master Key moves or are there also Master Key techniques, etc.

What I'd like to know is what exactly is the "cash value" of Master Keys (again anything that you would place under this concept: moves, techniques, etc.)? In other words, rather than another post debating what they are, I'd like to ask what exactly do they get you practically?

For instance, take two Kenpo clones and one day one of the clones suddenly "gets it," and grasps the whole Master Key perspective. In what ways will the enlightened clone be practically different now from his unenlightened brother? For those that really understand and have personally internalized the Master Key perspective (and the requisite physical skills), how did that change you specifically in the way you execute Kenpo, how did it affect your self-defense prowess, etc.? I.e., do the Master Keys help you fight better, be more spontaneous, quicker, or what, and if so, how exactly do they perform these functions?

Thanks, Howard

. Cool William James reference!!!
Well I would say understanding master keys will save you a lot of actual money in the long run. A Master key technique is one you can use in any situation. You might ask which one that is and the answer is all of them or none of them depending on the individual performing them and how much work that individual put in to it. You can teach 200 techs, each with a different tactic, or you can apply 200 different tactics with variations of one technique. The business aspect leans toward more techs and the practical aspect leans toward less.
Sean

 

[bdparsons]

"I can give you a cake and you can eat it once. But if I give you the recipe, you can make another as many times as you like, but only exactly like it. However, if I teach you to bake (the master keys of culinary arts), you can make that cake and many others. The cake is one technique. The recipe consists of a "knowledge" of the technique's prinicples."

Excellent!

Here's another: " Give a person a fish and they'll eat for a day, teach them to use the internet and they won't bother you for weeks!"

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[JD_Nelson]

I don't think there are master key techniques. (Gasp here)

The master keys are the basics. Realizing that an inward block has the same position as an extended outward block on a different plane.

When you can put the basics together in any situation. I think this is when the art becomes alive.


Salute,

JD

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
When you can put the basics together in any situation. I think this is when the art becomes alive.

but isn't that what the Master Key Moves represent...? combining or ADDING basics together so that they can be applied to more than one scenario by creating a "sentence" than can be used as an answer in more than one scenario?

 

[JD_Nelson]

master key moves yes.

Techniques no


Salute,


JD

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
master key moves yes.
Techniques no

Really? Why not?

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
. Cool William James reference!!!
Sean

Good catch, but it was not intended as an expression of James' pragmatism. Actually, I reject that philosophy root and branch. But, I certainly can see how you might read James into my post.

 

[JD_Nelson]

Really?
Why not?

I think the master keys moves boil down to basics and their execution.
Very similar to a particular cake being the master key cake. The fundamentals of the may be sugar, flour, and eggs. Combined in the right mix it may make a fine dish.

The basics or master key moves combined in the proper sequence can create a technique full of power, fluidity, and agony for the attacker, but it seems it is a combination of these master key moves which result in the "Master Key Techniques."

I very much like 5 swords, and thundering hammers, but when I break these techs down to the block, strike, stance change, and so on, I see basics and fundamentals of kenpo. Yes there are techniques I don't like as well or don't feel right, but when I break them down to their simple movements, and reassemble it I feel much more comfortable with it, and normally it flows better for me.


Mr. Conatser,

If I may, what are reasons for believing a technique is a master key?

Salute,

JD

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by howardr
Good catch, but it was not intended as an expression of James' pragmatism. Actually, I reject that philosophy root and branch. But, I certainly can see how you might read James into my post.

You reject pragmatism????!!!??? I'm Speechless.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
master key moves yes.

Techniques no


Salute,


JD

The idea is that you become so versed in a technique that it may become a base of operations. If you don't think this is possible, that is your gig. Will you at least accept family related groupings of techs are master keys or are you limiting master key to varied applications of a single move? Remember however it is OK to varry your applications of a sequence of moves as well. (example being a hammer- thrust could be attacking mace or thundering hammers) I can teach the whole art using attacking mace as a base without -ever- mentioning another tech name, "EVER !!!"
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
Mr. Conatser, If I may, what are reasons for believing a technique is a master key?
Salute, JD

As Mr. Parker explained to me, the value of Basics is important, then to structure combinations there of, is of further value, and finally to know how, when, where, and why to use them specifically , brings forth more useful knowledge .

Each area has its value. Much like the English language has "Key" areas ... such as verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and so on, each has a necessary use and meaning but once put together in a logical order, which has specific rules, communication is much more effective and understandable.

There are many "master keys"..... Master Key Movements, Master Key Techniques, Master Key Drills for coordination and physical development.... and so on.

A more thorough understanding will reveal more variables and knowledge.

In our quest for knowledge in Kenpo we must realize 3 important areas...... We "know of" many things, we "know" a little less, and we "understand" even less yet. To first know of, then to really know, and finally to understand, is our Long Journey in Kenpo.

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
I don't think there are master key techniques. (Gasp here)

The master keys are the basics. Realizing that an inward block has the same position as an extended outward block on a different plane.

When you can put the basics together in any situation. I think this is when the art becomes alive.


Salute,

JD

There is and there is not. Targeting sequences which are basically refered to as self defense techniques are master keys. The whole thing is about what exactly do you know about the technique. My opionion is when you look at it the way you did with angles and such you are right... looked at it that way myself for years. I would give you an A+ for that analogy on "angles" because you figured out how techniques are not masterkeys... Very good job JD. Very good job.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Rainman
There is and there is not. Targeting sequences which are basically refered to as self defense techniques are master keys. The whole thing is about what exactly do you know about the technique. My opionion is when you look at it the way you did with angles and such you are right... looked at it that way myself for years. I would give you an A+ for that analogy on "angles" because you figured out how techniques are not masterkeys... Very good job JD. Very good job.

Yeah, congratulations :shrug:
SEAN:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Yeah, congratulations :shrug:
SEAN:asian:

And?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Rainman
And?

And I don't think Mr. Parker laid out the idea of Master Key techs just so people could come a long and congratulate eachother for deciding it was all crap. Some see 154 seperate techs and some see one with 154 applications. Its relative to how you see it. You can list all the individual basics you know in the hundreds or you can say, "Wow, my arm makes the same basic motion every time, its only the weapon and target that changes". That is the master key is the basic motion and the specialization is for this particular application. As Far as motion goes, an outward etended block is in a different motion catagory than an inward block; however, conceptualy they are the same, but both require different points of origin to be of use.
Sean

 

[JD_Nelson]

By TOD

The idea is that you become so versed in a technique that it may become a base of operations. If you don't think this is possible, that is your gig. Will you at least accept family related groupings of techs are master keys or are you limiting master key to varied applications of a single move? Remember however it is OK to varry your applications of a sequence of moves as well. (example being a hammer- thrust could be attacking mace or thundering hammers) I can teach the whole art using attacking mace as a base without -ever- mentioning another tech name, "EVER !!!"

Sir,

I agree you become so versed in a technique it becomes a point to start from. Cant the same be said of a basic? I consider a neutral bow a basic. This is a base of operations for all of the techniques I have learned to date. Moving through a neutral to either a forward or reverse. I feel the techniques are a vehicle to teach how to implement the basics and put them together.

I like the idea of family related groupings. It is an excellent idea to help students learn how to respond to variations of an attack. It seems to help with grafting and being able to pull methods from 1 prescribe technique into another. I hope I am reading you correctly right.

Mr. Conatser:

As Mr. Parker explained to me, the value of Basics is important, then to structure combinations there of, is of further value, ...

I agree here to a point sir. I see his thought in respect to teaching the art to others so they can learn how to do this. Kenpo and the techniques have taught me very much to date, and I am sure the techniques to come will teach me much much more. I do question the idea that these arrangements will be the complete solution to a type of attack that falls into a certain category. A well planned defense and a reasonable solution, but by no means a complete solution.

If all we know are techniques will the ability to grow with the self defense aspect cease? I do realize you can go as deep as you want, but what about simplicity as a solution. I seriusly considered bailing out on kenpo due to the intracancies of some of the techniques. But, I have learned tremendous amounts from my few years in kenpo. I know I am much more proficient with my kenpo training than I would be without.

...and finally to know how, when, where, and why to use them specifically , brings forth more useful knowledge.

I think we are in agreement here. The techniques do this in an organized manner, but i think good kenpo basics can be applied in another art. There may be some minor adjustments or different approaches to achieve the same goal.

There are many "master keys"..... Master Key Movements, Master Key Techniques, Master Key Drills for coordination and physical development.... and so on.

Sir, coordination and timing are very important for any success to be expected in the martial arts. In my own case, I am not a very graceful runner, but the more I run the more coordinated and less like a teenager adjusting to his heigth. Thes drills are great for coordination, skill and physical development. But why do many consider Thundering Hammers a master key technique? Why Five Swords? Why others? What is it that sets these techniques so far above the rest?

A more thorough understanding will reveal more variables and knowledge.

In our quest for knowledge in Kenpo we must realize 3 important areas...... We "know of" many things, we "know" a little less, and we "understand" even less yet. To first know of, then to really know, and finally to understand, is our Long Journey in Kenpo.

Agreed.

Salute,

JD