What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[LFJ]

Really? There's no need for this. I'm sure someone of your caliber can make your points without picking out what you believe are the deficiencies of other lineages.

Tried that. People couldn't follow.

I need to use a visual example from something they know and understand.

I know this can be taken as picking on them, but it's just to illustrate my point in a way they can follow.

 

[Phobius]

Being all members of Wing Chun lineages, well also including WT/VT and others. I think hand chasing sadly is a term not possible to be discussed without being considered an insult.

Problem however is that we should rather than blame LFJ for picking out a lineage perhaps see those videos he referred to, discuss them and figure out how that came to be LFJ's view. Otherwise you will not be able to continue any discussion because LFJ will go about thinking the same thing about Cheung lineage and the rest of us will... well I dont actually know what the rest of us will.

Anyways, I also realized that no matter what lineage you train, it is not always the case that you all learn the same thing as others in your lineage. Reason being that it is all Wing Chun and different people emphasize different things. Some Sifu's have done trial and error and perhaps removed some stuff that other sifus got working and kept in their tutoring.

I believe martial art systems are constantly changing, not necessarily always evolving but at least going around in circles from time to time.

 

[Juany118]

Really? There's no need for this. I'm sure someone of your caliber can make your points without picking out what you believe are the deficiencies of other lineages.

Well we will see if he can show instructional videos, as opposed to demonstration video, of his VT that don't have Sifu's showing possible uses of specific techniques.

 

[Juany118]

Tried that. People couldn't follow.

I need to use a visual example from something they know and understand.

I know this can be taken as picking on them, but it's just to illustrate my point in a way they can follow.

So again, please post some instructional videos of your VT (since I do not know you exact lineage, you have been vague as hell on that and have also attacked other Sifus claiming the same lineage as you).

If you don't do that you really don't have a lot of credibility with what is clearly an attempt to build an argument based on videos taken out of their intended context.

It's why I suggested the trip to Maryland. There you will see WC of all schools in action, not instruction.

 

[LFJ]

I added an addition to my previous response but I will repeat it here. I think you are confusing teaching method with application. One can teach "you can address this attack like so, or so, or like so in order to close with the opponent" simply to illustrate possible applications of the techniques from the forms. You need this to actually understand the use of the art imo. Once the muscle memory is built in through proper training, application becomes far more automatic, you do what works for the immediate circumstances.

I understand applications can sometimes be used to illustrate your ideas, and that you shouldn't think in terms of applications, but when teaching these, if the applications shown are hand-chasing, that's a problem.

Especially for beginners who don't know how to act in free fighting yet and are likely to use these applications as training wheels for movement. Unfortunately, what they are training into muscle memory by this are actions that violate foundational principles and reinforce bad habits that will be difficult to detrain later.

 

[Phobius]

I understand applications can sometimes be used to illustrate your ideas, and that you shouldn't think in terms of applications, but when teaching these, if the applications shown are hand-chasing, that's a problem.

Especially for beginners who don't know how to act in free fighting yet and are likely to use these applications as training wheels for movement. Unfortunately, what they are training into muscle memory by this are actions that violate foundational principles and reinforce bad habits that will be difficult to detrain later.

I think this would be a problem for beginners when there is no forward intent in the drill. Such as a movement to the sides in order to catch a hand rather than to move forward and meeting hand.

Just realized I have crappy memory, cant recollect a drill that is done in order to illustrate that can also be missinterpreted as hand chasing. Not because we dont have those, illustrations are needed for people to understand some moves. It is just that my mind at the moment has gone blank completely.

Anyways, if you train with Philipp Bayer I assume a lot of the drills or illustrations avoid any kind of hand chasing not only because of the risk of missunderstanding, but also because doing said drill for both left and right arm can be bad for the person facing Philipp.

In my school we receive a lot of illustrations for people to understand movement that have not seen them before. Some start chasing hands at early points but once they learn forward intent it seems to fade away quickly without much need for unlearning. Could it be how my sifu does the drill? Possibly. Could it be something else? Possibly.

I read and studied a lot of videos and practises of those a lot better than me at that time as well so things did not go the same way for me. Or maybe I simply did not put any attention to it at the time and instead I notice the beginners nowadays.

 

[Callen]

Tried that. People couldn't follow.

I need to use a visual example from something they know and understand.

I know this can be taken as picking on them, but it's just to illustrate my point in a way they can follow.

I feel as though you're being genuine in your attempt, but you can easily illustrate your point without using another lineage as an example. There are so many ways in which you could have addressed the idea of "chasing hands" that didn't require you to call anyone out.

You want to use a visual example? Then simply post it without the comments regarding an entire lineage. You could have said nothing about William Cheung and referred to your resources quite effectively.

 

[Juany118]

I understand applications can sometimes be used to illustrate your ideas, and that you shouldn't think in terms of applications, but when teaching these, if the applications shown are hand-chasing, that's a problem.

Especially for beginners who don't know how to act in free fighting yet and are likely to use these applications as training wheels for movement. Unfortunately, what they are training into muscle memory by this are actions that violate foundational principles and reinforce bad habits that will be difficult to detrain later.

Well, since you won't produce video then why is WSL himself teaching what you are calling hand chasing?

It is only a violation of he principles IF you take the teaching for what it isn't, application. To learn to crawl, walk, jog, then run. When you are crawling and walking this is how you teach and if your Sifu is worth a damn they let you know where you stand on that journey. Unless of course even WSL himself was wrong of course.

Still waiting btw for you to show videos of your Lineage, not fiat statements made by you that support the point you are trying to make however. Since you raised the video evidence it is now your obligation to give the counter point in the same format. If you don't the Bard's words of "...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." come to mind.

 

[LFJ]

If you don't do that you really don't have a lot of credibility with what is clearly an attempt to build an argument based on videos taken out of their intended context.

I feel that is a bit ad hominem...

I don't need credibility to raise perceived issues. You can go ahead and assume my VT sucks. Does that mean my critique is invalid? If so, you're dismissing it based on an ad hominem.

Please explain in what context the example I showed is not clearly teaching hand-chasing ideas.

It's why I suggested the trip to Maryland. There you will see WC of all schools in action, not instruction.

I don't live in the States, but will be looking out for the footage after.

I feel as though you're being genuine in your attempt, but you can easily illustrate your point without using another lineage as an example. There are so many ways in which you could have addressed the idea of "chasing hands" that didn't require you to call anyone out.

You want to use a visual example? Then simply post it without the comments regarding an entire lineage. You could have said nothing about William Cheung and referred to your resources quite effectively.

The thing is, it just dawned on me why Juany118 and I are not on the same page concerning hand-chasing. It's a matter of lineage perspective. I didn't want to just pick one example that could be brushed off, because it is in fact the entire strategy of the lineage that I find problematic.

 

[Juany118]

I feel that is a bit ad hominem...

I don't need credibility to raise perceived issues. You can go ahead and assume my VT sucks. Does that mean my critique is invalid? If so, you're dismissing it based on an ad hominem.

Please explain in what context the example I showed is not clearly teaching hand-chasing ideas.



I don't live in the States, but will be looking out for the footage after.



The thing is, it just dawned on me why Juany118 and I are not on the same page concerning hand-chasing. It's a matter of lineage perspective. I didn't want to just pick one example that could be brushed off, because it is in fact the entire strategy of the lineage that I find problematic.

So then why is WSL hand chasing in the videos. WSL/VT is what you study correct? His hand chasing is little different than Cheung's. Why, because it is instruction and NOT application.

And it isn't an ad hominem. When you present evidence claiming one lineage is doing hand chasing, and in that context of instruction it is wrong, you have a duty to produce the "see this is the proper way to instruct" using the same media. You have yet to do it. If you do, I go away, if you can also answer to the WSL videos (and there are MANY more) that I linked.

 

[LFJ]

why is WSL himself teaching what you are calling hand chasing?

You posted 20 and 30 minute videos. Which parts are you talking about?

WSL taught some "mainstream" Wing Chun ideas at public seminars with visitors of various unknown backgrounds to keep it simple often to save face. He always said "just for show" and "maybe you can do it".

 

[Callen]

The thing is, it just dawned on me why Juany118 and I are not on the same page concerning hand-chasing. It's a matter of lineage perspective. I didn't want to just pick one example that could be brushed off, because it is in fact the entire strategy of the lineage that I find problematic.

Point well taken.

I don't live in the States, but will be looking out for the footage after.

Where do you live? If you don't mind me asking, who are you currently training with?

 

[LFJ]

When you present evidence claiming one lineage is doing hand chasing, and in that context of instruction it is wrong, you have a duty to produce the "see this is the proper way to instruct" using the same media.

So, you're saying hand-chasing is not wrong or bad if it's during instruction?

I would say it's wrong and bad especially because it's being instructed.

Maybe I would be more understanding if you taught non-hand-chasing methods, but in fighting you sometimes make mistakes. But teaching hand-chasing?!

If I show you instruction that does not involve hand-chasing, you "go away"? What does that mean? You don't think it's possible to teach without chasing hands?

 

[Juany118]

You posted 20 and 30 minute videos. Which parts are you talking about?

WSL taught some "mainstream" Wing Chun ideas at public seminars with visitors of various unknown backgrounds to keep it simple often to save face. He always said "just for show" and "maybe you can do it".

As for the first video pretty much all of it. 2nd video, with the exception of some sticking hands in the beginning pretty much all.

As for your last bit, I was expecting this tbh, a fiat statement with no supporting evidence. So as such, on this topic, this is saved to my clip board for all future responses.

"If you wish to actually produce verifiable proof please produce instructional, not demonstration videos of WSL/VT that do not use what you have called 'chasing hands.' Without said proof, all we have are baseless claims regarding instruction and training because EVERY WSL/VT instruction video I have this found WSL's or not, shows what you call "chasing hands." "

I expect no response to this last bit, rather I expect avoidance but hope springs eternal.

 

[Juany118]

So, you're saying hand-chasing is not wrong or bad if it's during instruction?

I would say it's wrong and bad especially because it's being instructed.

Maybe I would be more understanding if you taught non-hand-chasing methods, but in fighting you sometimes make mistakes. But teaching hand-chasing?!

If I show you instruction that does not involve hand-chasing, you "go away"? What does that mean? You don't think it's possible to teach without chasing hands?

"If you wish to actually produce verifiable proof please produce instructional, not demonstration videos of WSL/VT that do not use what you have called 'chasing hands.' Without said proof, all we have are baseless claims regarding instruction and training because EVERY WSL/VT instruction video I have thus far found, WSL's or not, shows what you call "chasing hands." "

 

[LFJ]

So you want me to make an instructional video for you to show you that teaching can be done without chasing hands? I guess I'm not surprised you think it's impossible...

 

[Juany118]

So you want me to make an instructional video for you to show you that teaching can be done without chasing hands? I guess I'm not surprised you think it's impossible...

No. Unless you are some special little snowflake in the WSL/VG community, or the art is actually one only taught in secret upon pain of death, thanks to the wonders of the internet there will be videos of Sifus teaching the crawling and walking, even some jogging students, without hand chasing out there. Thing is I haven't found one yet. You should know how to better search for your Lineage than I however so...

"If you wish to actually produce verifiable proof please produce instructional, not demonstration videos of WSL/VT that do not use what you have called 'chasing hands.' Without said proof, all we have are baseless claims regarding instruction and training because EVERY WSL/VT instruction video I have thus far found, WSL's or not, shows what you call "chasing hands." "

If not it is just typical anonymous internet avoidance.

 

[LFJ]

This is true hilarity. I've never seen someone defend teaching hand-chasing, or challenge someone to prove that teaching can be done without hand-chasing.

Point proven anyway. You are a hand-chaser. But since you don't mind, I won't try to change your ways. Or do you actually mind? I can't really tell.

 

[Juany118]

This is true hilarity. I've never seen someone defend teaching hand-chasing, or challenge someone to prove that teaching can be done without hand-chasing.

Point proven anyway. You are a hand-chaser. But since you don't mind, I won't try to change your ways. Or do you actually mind? I can't really tell.

Actually my point is proven. How. It's called critical thinking. Its how we get people convicted in courts of Law in USA. How does it work?

1. You post videos claiming my YM lineage creates hand chasers.
--- I respond by stating instructional videos are to teach possible uses for techniques not real world applications.
------you deny this is useful but talk in circles on that issue in terms of actual substance.
2. I produce videos of the founder of your YM lineage doing the exact same thing.
---you come up with an unsupported "he taught some "mainstream"..."
3. So I say "okay forget WSL. Just show me a video of ANY WSL/VT Sifu giving an instructional seminar or class on a video NOT teaching in the same manner. Don't care who. If you are right it must exist. If you aren't right then the only facts we have in evidence are WC and WS teaching in the exact same manner. That means from the point of verifiable fact, your position is unsupported.

This is how critical thinking and logic work irl.

Thank you btw for the condescension. It only further proved my point.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You aren't chasing his head if you are pressing his hand off to the side and then moving forward to strike. What you are doing is indirect and inefficient.

The same goal can be achieved with a direct counter punch that automatically clears the line displacing his arm while striking in one beat.

We've had this discussion before, but you're still doing block then punch. This is a violation of directness and efficiency principles, or lin-siu-daai-da.

I apply WC concept to meet my need and not the other way around.

My main goal is not trying to punch on my opponent's head but to "lock" on his head and then take him down. Before I do that, I need to feel where his arms are so I can wrap his arms.

feel where my opponent's arms are -> wrap his arms -> apply head lock -> take him down -> start ground game