What forms do you know?

Xue Sheng

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WOW!!! You all have a lot of forms! Makes my list look thin. :(

My list is from 18 years of training (not including the TKD and Jujitsu - then we are over 30 years), all I do now is

Yang Taijiquan
Traditional Yang Long form
2 fast forms
2 Dao forms
1 Jian form
Staff
Various types of push hands
Associated Qigong

Now that list is thin :D
 

clfsean

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My list is from 18 years of training (not including the TKD and Jujitsu - then we are over 30 years), all I do now is

Yang Taijiquan
Traditional Yang Long form
2 fast forms
2 Dao forms
1 Jian form
Staff
Various types of push hands
Associated Qigong

Now that list is thin :D

Oh crud... I don't count the TKD forms I knew & the ones I teach now... I was looking just at current (last 6 years or so) of CMA ... and thinking about it I've forgotten a couple of forms from the list... oh well... .
 
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Tensei85

Tensei85

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WOW!!! You all have a lot of forms! Makes my list look thin. :(

My next three forms I will be learning are:

Lo Han
Zhai Yao
Spear

Not bad for a guy with a little over 2 yrs of mantis training.


Not bad at all: The Zhai Yao forms are awesome! You'll enjoy them on a side note which Lo Han are you learning if you don't mind me asking?
 
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Tensei85

Tensei85

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I used to practice the TKD Palgwe 1-8 & Taeguek 1-8 and once in awhile I crack out the TKD Koryo form. And I remember Judo had 4 or 5 two man Kata's as well. The ones I used to practice were Itsutsu No Kata & Katame No Kata. (Pretty sweet!) I learned 1 more but forgot the name.

On a side note I used to practice some Arnis forms (pretty cool)

And the Pinan Kata's from Shotokan I think 1-6. Along with the Bo & Tonfa as well as the Sai. (All very cool)

My favorite was probably the Katana forms I learned from Aikido & Kenjutsu.

And of course the Wudang Dragon sword forms were awesome!

But mostly now I just practice CMA forms.
 

clfsean

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I used to practice the TKD Palgwe 1-8 & Taeguek 1-8 and once in awhile I crack out the TKD Koryo form. And I remember Judo had 4 or 5 two man Kata's as well. The ones I used to practice were Itsutsu No Kata & Katame No Kata. (Pretty sweet!) I learned 1 more but forgot the name.

On a side note I used to practice some Arnis forms (pretty cool)

And the Pinan Kata's from Shotokan I think 1-6. Along with the Bo & Tonfa as well as the Sai. (All very cool)

My favorite was probably the Katana forms I learned from Aikido & Kenjutsu.

And of course the Wudang Dragon sword forms were awesome!

But mostly now I just practice CMA forms.

I teach the Taeguk at the TKD school I teach at.

PS... Shotokan = Heian 1 -5 (Japanese)... Shorin ryu = Pinan 1- (Okinawan)
 
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Tensei85

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Lol, thanks for the clarification clfsean,
We were always told they were Pinan, wow I've heard of Heian before though.
Ill have to go back & compare: However I wasn't sure of the number so it probably was just 1-5 they were teaching.

Thanks for the info, ill have to do some more research. I haven't trained with them for probably atleast 10 years though...
 

clfsean

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Lol, thanks for the clarification clfsean,
We were always told they were Pinan, wow I've heard of Heian before though.
Ill have to go back & compare: However I wasn't sure of the number so it probably was just 1-5 they were teaching.

Thanks for the info, ill have to do some more research. I haven't trained with them for probably atleast 10 years though...


No prob... they mean the same in English (Peace), but one is Nihongo & the other Uchinadi.
 

geezer

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Hey,
Just wanted to start a thread on what forms the various practs know or utilize in there training?

I train Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Tse, Mook Yang Jong Fa and Luk Dim Boon Kwun in the Wing Tsun system. I've yet to be taught Bart Cham Dao.

I also do a bit of Eskrima and we practice a couple of training sets... but they are not really anything like traditional forms.

As to what I know...



...Well to know you must be able to perform it effortlessly without conscious thought. You must have a deep understanding of application...

And, you must be able to instinctively and effectively use the movements if attacked.

So, I maybe I know a little. I don't know these forms fully. Not by a long shot. But I know a little. Yes.
 

yak sao

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I trained in a Southern shaolin (ish) system for several years and had a long laundry list of forms. I loved doing them....the longer and more complex the better.
I have been training in Wing Tsun since 1995, and at first I missed all the forms training. But after a while it was a luxury to be able to focus on a limited number of forms/techniques. I no longer feel as if I'm juggling, spinning plates, treading water (choose your analogy).
While I have miles to go, the journey is a lot more enjoyable for me now because I'm not lugging around a big trunk full of forms.
 

geezer

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I trained in a Southern shaolin (ish) system for several years and had a long laundry list of forms. I loved doing them....the longer and more complex the better.
I have been training in Wing Tsun since 1995, and at first I missed all the forms training. But after a while it was a luxury to be able to focus on a limited number of forms/techniques. I no longer feel as if I'm juggling, spinning plates, treading water (choose your analogy).
While I have miles to go, the journey is a lot more enjoyable for me now because I'm not lugging around a big trunk full of forms.

I know exactly how you feel. WT has a very streamlined curriculum compared with most other Chinese martial arts, and I find that liberating. I find memorizing long forms difficult and time-consuming. Worse, I have to constantly repeat them or I forget them. You talk about "spinning plates". I look at all the forms listed by Tensei and a few others and thank god that I don't have to keep all those plates spinning. I would have quit years ago.


On the other hand, people are very different in the way they learn. I've met individuals with incredible memories. Some have "photographic" visual memories, some have musical memory, and some have a sort of kinetic memory. Many professional dancers have that to some degree. After developing their foundation in their art, they can assimilate and retain new routines very quickly. I can only assume that the same skill set must be necessary to master those martial arts that have many complex forms. I can also sympathize with the frustration of individuals who lack that kind of memory but who still have good athletic ability. Such a person might be a great fighter, but struggle with forms... in fact, for this kind of person, training a lot of forms might impede their martial development. It's really a question of finding a good fit.

As for myself, my plate is very full with what WT has to offer. Between the forms and drills, especially all the chi-sau "sections", I still have a hard time remembering the material. And I haven't seen it all yet.
 

Xue Sheng

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I look at all the forms listed by Tensei and a few others and thank god that I don't have to keep all those plates spinning. I would have quit years ago.

Why do you think I stopped everything but Yang Taijiquan :D

As for myself, my plate is very full with what WT has to offer. Between the forms and drills, especially all the chi-sau "sections", I still have a hard time remembering the material. And I haven't seen it all yet.

Yup that about covers why I do only Yang Taijiquan these days... except substitue YT for WT and push hands or Tuishou for Chi-sau :D
 
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Tensei85

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I agree, Wing Chun's awesome! What it expresses is economy of motion.
Simplicity, Efficiency & Directness. This transfers over to the form practice at the same time teaching core concepts. It seems that's how its defined.

The way I see it for Wing Chun is there's no need for anything else other than SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ, LDPK & BJD. But I've also heard that the original form was only SNT and the other forms were added later during the Red Boat time period. So I guess there may be some room for modification as to meet the needs of practs today.

What do you guys think: Should a system like Wing Chun or even Taiji be modified to meet the various ranges of fighting in today's standards as seen especially in MMA matches? Or is it more tailor it for a specific need? Such as if you want to fight by MMA rules you have to in some form tailor it to meet that specific goal.

There are some Wing Chun fighters that are doing well in MMA matches with what would be called Wing Chun body mechanics. But at the same time they still had to add various elements including grappling into their game. (in other words some people would say thats not Wing Chun when watching there fights)

Even in the San Shou fights that I took place in atleast some form of throwing and kicking were needed. If not anything else than to understand the general guidelines of ranges of fighting.

So in CMA the common elements of Fighting Ranges are Ti/Da/Suai/Na
Kick/Hit/Throw/Lock these transfer over to most if not all CMA's.


On a side note: Systems like Tong Long (7 star) have 88 common forms with variables ranging from well over 100 forms, CLF has a ton of forms as mentioned. But each of these forms express important concepts that are being trained from a mental level all the way to the body mechanics.


However one thing I would like to say is that even in Tong Long Quan forms such as Beng Bu & Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy have enough info to keep a pract. busy for atleast a years time period. So certain forms and movements become hard to perfect or master and other forms become a little redundant at times. But at the same time the Praying Mantis system was supposed to be a 10 year system, that may be a little hard to memorize 88 forms with all the San Da techniques. Let alone training of the concepts & principles.
 

Xue Sheng

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Should the systems be modified for MMA? Nope

If you want to do MMA with a CMA use good sports Sanda and follow the example of Cung Le.

Sanda (sanshou) is already based on a lot of CMA styles. It is however more evident in the police military version than the sport version but you could not use the police military version in an MMA ring. Not that it is any super CMA or to dangerous it is just not training to follow MMA rules and would get you disqualified fast.

I felt more similarity in the transfer of power between Taijiquan or Xingyiquan with Police military Sanda than I did with any other styles I have trained. However in Police/Military Sanda there is no talk of Qi.
 

Tamojin

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Wow some of these guys know more forms than most Sifu!

7 Star Praying Mantis forms

Horse Stance Sequence
Doi Jau
Sup Sei Lo
Cheng Quan
Daw Gong
Dun Quan
 

East Winds

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There is a difference between "Knowing Forms" and knowing the essence of an art!!!!!!

Very best wishes
 

Shifu Steve

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Personally I know 20 empty hand and 5 weapons forms (short sticks, short staff and long staff). I generally run all of them once sometimes twice a week however there are 5 that I run each morning and use as a reference point for technique. I don't really see the need for more at this point in my training as I feel there are so many concepts expressed in the ones I have that adding more is basically just skinning the proverbial cat a different way.

Some of those that responded to the post knew quite a few forms. I know there is such a thing as "collecting" forms but I am curious as to how many are used for training and how many are learned for another reason (e.g. tradition or lineage).

I am sure that at some point I'll break down and examine all the kata I know but it's a lifetime of learning so these things have a way of revealing themselves through practice and repetition.

Also, in addition to the kata are there a number of Qigong exercises everyone practices? I was taught Da Mo's 18 Muscle Change Classic and 5 Beasts At Play (5 Animal Frolic). There were a number of supplementary exercises as well including such as Iron Leg.
 

clfsean

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Personally I know 20 empty hand and 5 weapons forms (short sticks, short staff and long staff). I generally run all of them once sometimes twice a week however there are 5 that I run each morning and use as a reference point for technique. I don't really see the need for more at this point in my training as I feel there are so many concepts expressed in the ones I have that adding more is basically just skinning the proverbial cat a different way.

Some of those that responded to the post knew quite a few forms. I know there is such a thing as "collecting" forms but I am curious as to how many are used for training and how many are learned for another reason (e.g. tradition or lineage).

I am sure that at some point I'll break down and examine all the kata I know but it's a lifetime of learning so these things have a way of revealing themselves through practice and repetition.

Also, in addition to the kata are there a number of Qigong exercises everyone practices? I was taught Da Mo's 18 Muscle Change Classic and 5 Beasts At Play (5 Animal Frolic). There were a number of supplementary exercises as well including such as Iron Leg.

Kata == Japanese btw, not Chinese but I know what you're talking about.

The sets are the textbooks. Each will present a topic or idea. Some are more "comprehensive" than others or focus solely on one or two things along with complementary ideas & techniques. Drills and practice comes from the sets.

As long as the sets are related to the same art, it's not collecting as long as you discern something new or different in each. Some styles only have a couple of sets because they have set the training to draw from it. Others lay it out by "connect the dots" with multiple sets.

I can distill everything I need down to one or two sets. But I like the exercise & mental workout with multiple sets. Also in practicing multiple styles, I have to maintain multiple practice routines to match. But that's not as prevalent in my day to day training any longer.

The big thing on sets is to maintain style integrity, sets have to be maintained. If you move to a non set-based art, then you replace sets with drills & you have to remember somehow all the different techniques. Sets make it easy.

It's a personal thing.

I'm still waiting though on my last question to you about the Song dynasty Praying Mantis you mentioned. How about some info on it?
 

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