Western medicine and meditation

theletch1

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I found this article about how western science is beginning to think that Zen meditation might actually work for some ailments. Really? [sarcasm] Why do so many western scientists seem surprised when they realize that traditional and oriental healing arts aren't bunk just because they don't require you to get a dozen prescriptions?
I found this line to be rather condescending:
The researchers "had to screen — and discard — a number of colorful characters who during the interview declared that they were meditating regularly by screaming in a towel while stomping their feet on the ground, or that they were communicating frequently with beings of other planets," Pagnoni recalled. "Such are the unexpected joys of this research!"
 

jarrod

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western science often forgets that nothing is impossible, only likely or unlikely. unlikely is still possible. from a western perspective many eastern practices look alien & superstitious, but once you bother to go beyond the surface you see it makes perfect sense. it may still seem unlikely, but it is possible & therefore not ridiculous.

also, i think you can meditate by stomping your feet or screaming if you want to. various tribal cultures have used this to induce a trance like state for centuries.

jf
 

Xue Sheng

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There have been multiple finding made by Western Medicine about Traditional Chinese Medicine that generally makes my wife say "we knew that a thousand years ago" she is a TCM OMD from China.
 

Empty Hands

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Why do so many western scientists seem surprised when they realize that traditional and oriental healing arts aren't bunk just because they don't require you to get a dozen prescriptions?

Because most of it is bunk, and it has nothing to do with prescriptions. Many TCM techniques do not hold up under empirical testing. For those that do to an extent like acupuncture, they do not work for the reasons that TCM says they do. The spleen is not a critical organ of the body guys, sorry. You can do without your spleen. You cannot do without your brain, which strangely isn't listed.
 

Skip Cooper

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Because most of it is bunk, and it has nothing to do with prescriptions. Many TCM techniques do not hold up under empirical testing. For those that do to an extent like acupuncture, they do not work for the reasons that TCM says they do. The spleen is not a critical organ of the body guys, sorry. You can do without your spleen. You cannot do without your brain, which strangely isn't listed.

The ancient Egyptians didn't think the brain was of much use either...
 

Xue Sheng

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Because most of it is bunk, and it has nothing to do with prescriptions. Many TCM techniques do not hold up under empirical testing. For those that do to an extent like acupuncture, they do not work for the reasons that TCM says they do. The spleen is not a critical organ of the body guys, sorry. You can do without your spleen. You cannot do without your brain, which strangely isn't listed.

You have NO background in this NO experience with this you have NEVER been to China and yet you still beleive you are an expert. If you do not believe it works fine don't ever go to a TCM doc.

Strangly enough however it has worked in China for quite a while and IS working side by side with western medicines SUCCESFULLY treating patients in MAJOR hospitals in China...OH wait...you've never been there and have little to NO experieince with REAL honest to goodness WELL TRAINED TCM Doctors.

Good luck with that.
 

Empty Hands

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You have NO background in this NO experience with this you have NEVER been to China and yet you still beleive you are an expert.

No, I am not an expert, and I've never been to China. I can review the scientific literature however, which IS written by experts.

Here, do some research of your own. If you are curious, do a search for "streicher jm" and you can read what I AM an expert on. I never spout off on scientific matters without reviewing the literature first.
 

Xue Sheng

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No, I am not an expert, and I've never been to China. I can review the scientific literature however, which IS written by experts.

Here, do some research of your own. If you are curious, do a search for "streicher jm" and you can read what I AM an expert on. I never spout off on scientific matters without reviewing the literature first.

Sure thing boss right after you do some serious (unbiased) study into tcm and what it is REALLY all about and how it is ACTUALLY trained and praticed today in China. You can find research here in the west if you like but I doubt you will do any of that since we all know you already know everything :rolleyes:

Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. -- George Bernard Shaw
 

punisher73

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Because most of it is bunk, and it has nothing to do with prescriptions. Many TCM techniques do not hold up under empirical testing. For those that do to an extent like acupuncture, they do not work for the reasons that TCM says they do. The spleen is not a critical organ of the body guys, sorry. You can do without your spleen. You cannot do without your brain, which strangely isn't listed.

I would be interested in reading the research. Is there a link that makes it easy to find or just 'google' it? Thanks in advance.

As a side note, I find it interesting that for a long time western medicine identified the Autonomic Nervous System as outside of conscious thought and was something we couldn't consciously control. Then there were exeriments where we could, through meditation, affect it. I also find it interesting (not TCM per se) that the "chakras" as identified in yogic practices and focal points in meditation correspond to the organs of the endocrine system. It would be intersting to see a study on this, to see if chakral meditations help regulate the hormonal balance of the endocrine system.
 

Empty Hands

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Sure thing boss right after you do some serious (unbiased) study into tcm and what it is REALLY all about and how it is ACTUALLY trained and praticed today in China. You can find research here in the west if you like but I doubt you will do any of that since we all know you already know everything :rolleyes:

Bah, this is why discussing this topic with you is so obnoxious. First of all, PubMed does collate research in foreign journals and in foreign languages, although I can only read translations.

As for my bolded above, this is just you being an *** and not listening. I have already stated that I reviewed the literature. This isn't me being an uninformed know-it-all. Until you can acknowledge what I actually say, then discussing anything with you on this topic is pointless
 

Empty Hands

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I would be interested in reading the research. Is there a link that makes it easy to find or just 'google' it? Thanks in advance.

Sure, go to PubMed. It is the largest fully searchable database of biomedical research in the world. It is maintained by the NIH.

Here is a post I made on reiki, with posted research links.
 

MA-Caver

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IMO the driving force in "western medicine" isn't healing... it's MONEY. There are tons of dollars to be made in dealing and prescribing pharmaceuticals, tons of money to be made in medical insurance and while TCM doesn't have tons of scientific research (???) (get to THAT in a moment) behind it and endless FDA testing approval (which takes eons btw... unless the manufacturer can *ahem* get the FDA to pu$h their drug through and isn't THAT an ironic statement..."push their drug through" ) most western physicians aren't going to lose their 10 bedroom houses and $50K+ cars and sweet benefits provided by the drug manufacturers just because TCM has shown a cheaper and even a legitimate cure for whatever ails you.
As for scientific research... think about this... does research require a million dollar labratory with million dollar testing equiptment and hundreds of highly trained technicians in white lab coats meticulously testing every bit of a drug, ailment over sometimes dozens of years?
Wouldn't a backwoods country doctor who has learned that this plant or extract from that bug or whatever testing it out on their own "patients" be considered research?
How many drugs that are being hawked on TV and magazine ads have dozens upon dozens of side-effects? How many warn don't take this drug if you have this or that pre-exisisting condition? Why are they selling those drugs at all??? MONEY.
The PDR book is getting fatter and fatter all the time.
Sure many of those drugs DO help out and many don't. Many are new and haven't been around long enough to truly ascertain long term effects of taking the drugs... oh wait, excuse me... many of those have gone through the so-called FDA rigorous testing over years of research... provided they haven't been "pu$hed through" sooner.

I'm sorry but this topic... sigh, I should've stayed away from it, just gets me hot because of the greed that underlies the true purpose of medicine which is to heal people and/or ease their suffering.
Western doctors should do a bit more study of older remedies and treatments rather than toss a bottle of pills to someone saying take two of those every 4 hours and call me in two weeks.
 

Xue Sheng

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Bah, this is why discussing this topic with you is so obnoxious. First of all, PubMed does collate research in foreign journals and in foreign languages, although I can only read translations.

As for my bolded above, this is just you being an *** and not listening. I have already stated that I reviewed the literature. This isn't me being an uninformed know-it-all. Until you can acknowledge what I actually say, then discussing anything with you on this topic is pointless

Well we agree on one thing I feel that discussing anything on this topic with you is pointless as well you already know it everything and all one need to do to prove that is ask you.

You have reviewed literature I am wholly unimpressed. Most of the in depth literature on this is in classical Chinese and not translated into pinyin so exactly what are you reading that has made you such an expert? Have you ever discussed this with anyone that is trained in a TCM university in China or possibly an instructor from one? Have you ever even talked to a real live TCM OMD about it? Do you have the slightest idea how many "revelations" western medicine comes up with about TCM and how it works that most TCM docs already knew? Why is it both wetern and eastern MDs in China work very well together. Why is it many MDs in the USA are now considering and sending their patients to OMDs here in the US?

Feel free to call me names make accusations or whatever you wish it still does not take away form the fact that you know nothing of the topic.

Interesting how this all goes back to you have NO experience with this at all isn't it. But I have noticed you are sure right there to call it fake or bull or placebo every chance you get.

Here let me put this up again maybe you missed it last time

Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. -- George Bernard Shaw.
 
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Empty Hands

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Wouldn't a backwoods country doctor who has learned that this plant or extract from that bug or whatever testing it out on their own "patients" be considered research?

No, not really. Proper empirical drug testing involves at the least a control group, and preferably double-blinded participants and researchers. The Placebo Effect, which is powerful on its own, combined with human Confirmation and Selection biases makes the type of research you discuss almost useless. That type of research is what made doctors think trepanning or bloodletting was effective. While not perfect by any means, modern empirical methods are designed to avoid these problems and biases. It isn't perfect, but the answer isn't to throw up your hands and start believing non-scientific nonsense.
 

Empty Hands

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You have reviewed literature I am wholly unimpressed.

I am not surprised you would completely discount any evidence that does not fit your preconceived notions. A little hint from a practicing scientist: the answer to evidence showing something isn't effective is other evidence showing the opposite - not an exhortation to talk to people who already believe in it. Post some evidence from people using decent empirical methods and I will go with it.

Your responses do nothing but attempt to deflect attention from the fact that you can't post the evidence while I can.
 

Skip Cooper

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My head hurts after reading all of this...should I take a couple Advils, massage those points on my hands, sacrifice a chicken, or just forget the whole thing?

I am not convinced that TCM is all wrong, nor am I convinced that western medicine has all the answers. We still can't cure cancer, we still can't live forever, and there seems to be no solution to this argument.

Although I can't cite it here, I have read that western science believes that prayer and meditation does indeed contribute to healing in the body. In a state of meditation and prayer, the blood pressure is decreased and stress is reduced. I am not sure how this helps the healing process, I will have to research this area before I can state with certainty. I feel like stress contributes to a large percentage of our health issues and well as our eating habits. But again, I have no documentation to back this up. Just an educated guess, if you will.

Agree or disagree, all I know is that we all die in the end. There is nothing preventing that, TCM or western medicine is powerless.
 

Empty Hands

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I am not convinced that TCM is all wrong, nor am I convinced that western medicine has all the answers.

TCM isn't all wrong, I already pointed out that some parts of it like acupuncture have been supported to a degree. However, the foundational theory of why it all works (qi/chi and meridians) has no scientific basis.

Although I can't cite it here, I have read that western science believes that prayer and meditation does indeed contribute to healing in the body.

Yes, some studies have shown such benefits. It isn't very consistent though, and probably has a lot to do with the preexisting attitudes and beliefs of those who are being asked to pray/meditate. What is clear from several studies though is that having other people pray for you is not effective.
 

Xue Sheng

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I am not surprised you would completely discount any evidence that does not fit your preconceived notions. A little hint from a practicing scientist: the answer to evidence showing something isn't effective is other evidence showing the opposite - not an exhortation to talk to people who already believe in it. Post some evidence from people using decent empirical methods and I will go with it.

Your responses do nothing but attempt to deflect attention from the fact that you can't post the evidence while I can.

And your name calling and accusations and “scientist” statement is doing much the same.

And that is an expected response from one that is locked in western views that has a closed mind to anything else.

I told you in a previous post that there are multiple cases that have been treated studied and recorded in China but then we are back to you have never been there nor do you wish to seriously pursue any such study that does not fit your preconceived views.

and being a practicing scientist does not impress me all that much. Here's a bit of info scientists have been known to be wrong from time to time so thanks for the info, I already knew that by the way and have made mention of that to you ion previous posts. Its there go get it if you are seriously interested. But you didn't the last time so I can only assume you won't this time either. Have you actually ever talked to a person that is a graduate of a TCM school in China and discussed this?

Basically as far as MT is concerned we don't agree much or get along.

But lets take this in another direction and see exactly how open you are or closed minded you are

You study things related to TCM, although I find that doubtful due to the lack of knowledge you have displayed lets just say. Much of western sciences investigation into TCM can be described as reinventing the wheel and then taking credit for the invention of it.

You already said the following

Because most of it is bunk, and it has nothing to do with prescriptions. Many TCM techniques do not hold up under empirical testing. For those that do to an extent like acupuncture, they do not work for the reasons that TCM says they do. The spleen is not a critical organ of the body guys, sorry. You can do without your spleen. You cannot do without your brain, which strangely isn't listed.

First please define what you mean by "prescription"

Do you actually know what makes up TCM? I know you know acupuncture is part of it but do you know what else is involved?

And you are looking at it from the view of western medicine and that will not work.

Does a traditional Chinese medical doctor know how important a spleen is? You think not but you are quite wrong here. Part of the curriculum of TCM training at all TCM universities is western medicine. I have heard Western MDs and PhDs that were surprised and impressed by just the undergrad curriculum that is required at a TCM University (4 year degree 160 credits)

Western medicine treats the resultant illness where TCM looks for and treats the cause as they see it and it is rather successful using this approach. If you apply western medical views to it many times it is not as successful and if you bother to seek out and talk to a well trained TCM doc and check your ego at the door before you do it is likely they will discuss this with you . If you approach them with your usual approach here they will happily walk away form you and not care what you think and or say.

As to the books I referred to it is quite true that much of the in-depth information is in traditional Chinese, not translated into simplified Chinese and certainly not translated into English.

Sadly many that train TCM in the US do not have access to this information and they also do not have access to working in a hospital and prior to that they have no internship like they do in China.

Back to the organs you scoff at, this tends to be a cultural view of Chinese medicine and we are not brought up this way or taught any of this. Therefore we have a real hard time with TCM traditional diagnosis because we generally apply western medical ways of thinking to it and it does not work as well if you focus on result and not cause. And ANY well trained TCM practitioner will tell you that there are things that TCM handles better than western medicine and things that western medicine handles much better. But it is the cultural aspect you will not get unless you study Chinese history and culture and I actually mean no insult here but I highly doubt you have ever studied any of that. And I get that from “the spleen is not a critical organ” statement it is

Your turn scientist

Edit
I just discussed some of this with my wife and she said that the World Health Organization has done a lot of research on TCM, you might want to go to there site. But that it is not all proven by western science and that is not really of much concern, there is a lot Western science has yet to prove.
 
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Skip Cooper

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It seems to me that there is a failure to communicate. This thread is shaping up to be full of taunts and name calling, instead of an intelligent debate between the western and eastern sciences. It is beginning to remind me of some religious chat rooms I used to visit.

Unfortunately, I cannot offer to either side, but it would be much better for those less initiated in both sciences if the two "experts" would engage in an open discussion rather than what we have read.

To Empty Hands:

I feel like your opening post was a bit abrasive, maybe even obnoxious, but it is your opinion nonetheless. You are entitled to your objection, but know that it may provoke an argument. You backed up your argument when challenged, kudos to you. You remained respectful and professional throughout this thread.

To Xue Sheng:

Empty Hands posted a link to the evidence that you requested. You in turn deflected the argument and chose to attack him instead. It is not enough to take a side without being able to back up your own claims with evidence. I also don't see where he resorted to name calling. I think his reponse after your challenge was professional and appropriate. You, on the other hand, obviously passionate about your beliefs (I like that, by the way) failed to respond in the like. Empty Hands merely expressed his opinion based on his own research and you responded with attacks and assumptions without knowlege of his expertise.



We are taught as martial artists to be respectful. It is possible to have an open debate without it sinking to snide remarks or sarcasm. This only happens when one has lost the argument and fails to concede or they lack the ability to defend their ideas with their own words.

I respect both of you as martial artists and human beings, let's have an informative debate about this issue that we all can learn from.

Kindest regards,
 
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