We're Not Afraid!

[Bammx2]

how about if we add up all those killed by American funded IRA bombs as well then?

whats your point there?
Are you saying the americans were responsable for this attack?
No?
Then why bring this up?

 

[BushidoUK]

I brought it up cos I was p*ssed off that Tgace had more or less said that "our attack was bigger than your attack so why all the fuss"

I just felt like reminding them that Americans didnt seem to mind funding terrorist groups themselves before they themselves were attacked.

 

[Bammx2]

I got ya.
The "americans" had nothing to do with that.
The government,yes! More specifically,CIA...they have even less to do with the wishes of the american people than the actual government does.
BUT......
By saying the americans did it is like me sayin the brits asked for the IRA reaction by sticking your nose where it doesn't belong and leaving it there.
But YOU didn't do that...your gov't did.
The americans didn't do it,an off-shoot of the gov't did it.
TWO completely different entities.
So you will excuse me when I get a little bent when people generalise americans like that.

 

[BushidoUK]

Bammx2,
I stand corrected
my apologies to you and all Americans for my slight.
However, i still feel agrieved at the previous post which almost trivialised the lower loss of life in London
1 life or 1000..... its still too many and both events in the USA and UK and Spain and Bali are all equally tragic.
One of the problems is that abroad the "Amercians" are seen to be insular and self centred on only matters that concern themselves. This is obviously a sweeping generalisation.
I meant no offence to the ordinary US citizen, only those in the examples you mentioned.

 

[Tgace]

Well..If you actually read my post you see that I made the comparison in terms of "national reaction". Somebody criticized how the US reacted after 9/11 compared to the London bombings.

Plane loads of people flying into buildings killing thousands at a stroke (and caught on film for all to see) is different from what happened in London and the countries reactions were bound to be different. As were the differences in our reactions between 9/11 and the Oklahoma city bombings.

 

[Tgace]

And...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/feature...jul08,1,3797889.story?coll=bal-artslife-today

"I am not one to criticize the competition, but one of the biggest problems yesterday was a lot of speculation about casualties and the number of people killed - with rather wild numbers flying around. We were very careful that we didn't put out any figures that weren't confirmed with an official source. Speculation in these circumstances, particularly about casualties, is really unhelpful and can make the situation worse. We went only with official information," Sambrook said.

Strict reliance on government information can result in the public's not getting the full story, or getting only a sweetened version of events. While polls show that American viewers say they want restraint from TV news in such moments, the same polls find a strong distaste for any form of self-censorship.

Citing a Pew Research Center study that showed that Americans who watched extended American TV coverage of the 9/11 attacks experienced more anxiety than those who didn't, Michael Brody, a Washington psychiatrist, said he applauded the BBC coverage yesterday.

"I've been monitoring CNN and the BBC all day, and there's no doubt about it," said Brody, who heads the Television & Media Committee of the American Academy of Childhood and Adolescent Psychiatry.

"American TV - particularly the all-news cable guys - is constantly hyping things up with talk of the potential for further attacks, while the BBC was trying to calm things down and reassure viewers that things were under control. As a psychiatrist, I have no doubt about the harmful effects of the former vs. the helpful effects of what I saw happening on the BBC."

 

[Bammx2]

Bammx2,
I stand corrected
my apologies to you and all Americans for my slight.
However, i still feel agrieved at the previous post which almost trivialised the lower loss of life in London
1 life or 1000..... its still too many and both events in the USA and UK and Spain and Bali are all equally tragic.
One of the problems is that abroad the "Amercians" are seen to be insular and self centred on only matters that concern themselves. This is obviously a sweeping generalisation.
I meant no offence to the ordinary US citizen, only those in the examples you mentioned.

...and I apologise as well.
My main problem is I am american and I live here in the UK and have done so for the last 5 years.
But more so than that....I have recieved different types of persecutions JUST for that reason and I am getting tired of being judged for the action of some moronic twit like GW Bush and the rest of the US gov't.
And the last event was just last weekend when someone just HEARD my voice,or accent, and started saying..and I quote:..."you are the worst warmongers and baby killers on the planet! those attacks would have never happen if YOU didn't stick your nose where it doesn't belong!"

British,muslim,american......what do they have in common now?

Persecution of the masses,by the masses,for the actions of a few.

BusidoUK......:asian:

 

[sgtmac_46]

I got ya.
The "americans" had nothing to do with that.
The government,yes! More specifically,CIA...they have even less to do with the wishes of the american people than the actual government does.
BUT......
By saying the americans did it is like me sayin the brits asked for the IRA reaction by sticking your nose where it doesn't belong and leaving it there.
But YOU didn't do that...your gov't did.
The americans didn't do it,an off-shoot of the gov't did it.
TWO completely different entities.
So you will excuse me when I get a little bent when people generalise americans like that.

The CIA had nothing to do with IRA bombings. That is the most asinine assertion I have seen in a long time of seeing asinine assertions. In fact, i've never heard that bizarre claim levelled by even the most ardent conspiracy fruit cakes. It was irish catholic organizations within the US that were sending money to the IRA, not the CIA (Unless you mean CIA as "Catholic Irish Americans".)

Bammx2,
I stand corrected
my apologies to you and all Americans for my slight.
However, i still feel agrieved at the previous post which almost trivialised the lower loss of life in London
1 life or 1000..... its still too many and both events in the USA and UK and Spain and Bali are all equally tragic.
One of the problems is that abroad the "Amercians" are seen to be insular and self centred on only matters that concern themselves. This is obviously a sweeping generalisation.
I meant no offence to the ordinary US citizen, only those in the examples you mentioned.

It's not just Americans, that tendency is human nature.

...and I apologise as well.
My main problem is I am american and I live here in the UK and have done so for the last 5 years.
But more so than that....I have recieved different types of persecutions JUST for that reason and I am getting tired of being judged for the action of some moronic twit like GW Bush and the rest of the US gov't.
And the last event was just last weekend when someone just HEARD my voice,or accent, and started saying..and I quote:..."you are the worst warmongers and baby killers on the planet! those attacks would have never happen if YOU didn't stick your nose where it doesn't belong!"

British,muslim,american......what do they have in common now?

Persecution of the masses,by the masses,for the actions of a few.

BusidoUK......:asian:

So your fellow Brits are blaming America for the enemy they have allowed in their own midst? I guess they're too politically correct to blame the REAL enemy. The Spanish were attacked, now the Brits were attacked, but have they really learned anything from this other than blame the US? Neville Chamberlain would be proud.

I brought it up cos I was p*ssed off that Tgace had more or less said that "our attack was bigger than your attack so why all the fuss"

I just felt like reminding them that Americans didnt seem to mind funding terrorist groups themselves before they themselves were attacked.

The world seems to like pointing the finger at the US on such issues as "funding terrorists", but many nations seem to forget their own history. European colonialism has as much to do with what we face in the middle east today as anything the US does, and Britain has the lions share of that blame. Further, we can take Iran for example. The news organizations like the BBC like to point out CIA involvement in installing the Shah or Iran, what seems rarely mentioned is that we assisted doing so by request of the British government, who was already operating in the region. The British have been playing their own games in the middle east for far longer than the US was even cognizant the middle east existed. So don't blame us if a few Islamic extremists are mad at you as well. Further, Islamic terrorist organizations trained and trained with many IRA terrorists for years.

We are your allies, do you really want to start attacking us in the moment you are attacked by our common enemy?

 

[Bammx2]

Did we touch a nerve?!?!

The brits did let the enemy in just as much as we let them in to the US.
and for your further info...
I have had a few brits give me grief.As well as people from ireland(they disagree about the CIA.) australia,SPAIN,and few others from countries I haven't even heard of.
Most of them say it is in retaliation for BACKING the US..not getting involved on thier own,but for supporting us.
You have to remember one thing....
this island has a far more massive concentration of foreign nationals than the US,so I get more first hand conversation than most back home would.
and just because you haven't heard of something doesn't neccessarly make it asnine.
I catch myself doing the same thing on occasion...

 

[sgtmac_46]

Did we touch a nerve?!?!

The brits did let the enemy in just as much as we let them in to the US.
and for your further info...
I have had a few brits give me grief.As well as people from ireland(they disagree about the CIA,btw) australia,SPAIN,and few others from countries I haven't even heard of.
So don't assume it was just "my fellow brits".....
As patriotic as some people may be to the US.....there are people who just used to dislike America,now we're getting lower on the list for no fault of our own.

If your friends from Ireland dislike the CIA, then it's probably evidence that the CIA did NOT help the IRA. There are actually two CIA's, the REAL CIA and the fantasy CIA of conspiracy theorists minds. The CIA has become a boogeyman myth across the world. If something goes wrong, blame the mythical CIA.

As far as those who wish to distance themselves from the US, it's not surprise. It may be some that of that self-centeredness you referred. The desire to avoid any conflict not currently directly in their face. Appeasement is the rule of the western world, not the exception. They hide their heads in the sand and hope terrorists will just ignore them. It's a basic weakness of western culture, the belief that everyone wants the same thing, and if you'll simply leave them alone, they will leave you alone.

 

[Nergul]

I would also like to add that there is a world of difference between what happened there and here. The impact on the nation was drastically different. Not that what happened in London isnt bad, it is, but it is a far cry from the events surrounding our own attack. It is like comparing apples and oranges and then trying to cram it all together and say, "hey, look how much better they are dealing with it!" It is a poor comparison.

 

[shesulsa]

Okay, some fair points so far -

First of all, the U.K. has already forfeited many civil liberties that we are yet to (or are about to, depending upon your lean) so comparing this status to our jump to give up some liberties in the name of safety COULD be a moot one ... however ... my point in context was to be that we are just SO VERY READY TO DO THIS that it is rather disturbing and one wonders if this great experiment in democracy will last in this new age of world terrorism.

Next,

Lets not make this about "Us or them". I actually find it offensive that you claim that the US "scattered like frightened sheep, screamed, panicked and forfeited civil liberties." I think that's offensive to those who carried on in the direct aftermath of 9/11, which by the way cost the lives of over 3,000 people. I don't recall myself or anyone I know scattering like "frightened sheep".

Perhaps my context wasn't clear. The feeling represented by our media was that of fear - colored warnings to predict your terrorism day. As if our 9/11 wasn't bad enough, we were almost commanded to be afraid - how could we not be? Our nation will never be the same, etc. etc. This is the face we showed the world - that and angry vengeance. I just think it was quite distinguishable from the general appearances - I could be wrong, it happened once before. My intent was not to begin an us v. them "thing" at all, merely a comparison of general face.

Again, the intent was not to compare EVENTS, rather CHEEK.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Okay, some fair points so far -

First of all, the U.K. has already forfeited many civil liberties that we are yet to (or are about to, depending upon your lean) so comparing this status to our jump to give up some liberties in the name of safety COULD be a moot one ... however ... my point in context was to be that we are just SO VERY READY TO DO THIS that it is rather disturbing and one wonders if this great experiment in democracy will last in this new age of world terrorism.

Next,
Perhaps my context wasn't clear. The feeling represented by our media was that of fear - colored warnings to predict your terrorism day. As if our 9/11 wasn't bad enough, we were almost commanded to be afraid - how could we not be? Our nation will never be the same, etc. etc. This is the face we showed the world - that and angry vengeance. I just think it was quite distinguishable from the general appearances - I could be wrong, it happened once before. My intent was not to begin an us v. them "thing" at all, merely a comparison of general face.
Again, the intent was not to compare EVENTS, rather CHEEK.

I understand your point, and respect it. I do disagree on a couple of points.

Timid sheephood and angry vengence seem to be opposite sides of the spectrum. Which did we show the world again? It would seem to me that if it were simply timid sheephood, the world would be very much happier with us right now. Instead, we aggressively went after the terrorist organizations involved, and nations that backed them.

A terrorist organization managed to coordinate simultaneous attacks in several different states, at the same time, resulting in the deaths of several thousands of people, the destruction of large buildings, and economic damage that resulted in the 100's of billions if not trillions of dollars ultimately. What would have been the appropriate level of paranoia after that?

Further, our aggressive posture has prevented a large number of further terrorist attacks within the US. That's an impressive achievement given Al-Queda's desire to do so. And this wasn't for lack of trying. Numerous attempts by terrorist cells operating in and outside of the US have been thwarted. Aborted and prevented terrorist attacks don't make big news, so we don't spend a lot of time talking about them. Yet, we've gone from 9/11 to the present day without Al Queda being able to launch another attack on the United States.

It is exactly Al-Queda's inability to attack the US directly that has led to stepped up operations within Europe, including Madrid and London. We have become less of a target of opportunity post-9/11. The intelligence and law-enforcement scene post-9/11 has been one success after another. Again, though, successful pro-active intelligence and law-enforcement activity does not make the news, only the failure therein, so it is no surprise we fail to realize the level of success we have had.

 

[shesulsa]

Timid sheephood and angry vengence seem to be opposite sides of the spectrum.

Think so? Fear and anger walk hand-in-hand. I did not use the term "timid sheephood" I said:

We scattered like frightened sheep, screamed, panicked and forfeited civil liberties

... which many of us did. Some citizens reported resurrecting their old bomb shelters or constructing new ones. Our government invoked the patriot act. The collective "we" showed the face of fear and, pointing to it, was an enraged president swearing vengeance.

Which did we show the world again?

Both, dear. Catch up.

It would seem to me that if it were simply timid sheephood, the world would be very much happier with us right now.

See my comment above.

 

[shesulsa]

Heh - you edited while I was replying and I'm too tired to respond now. Goodnight.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Think so? Fear and anger walk hand-in-hand. I did not use the term "timid sheephood" I said: ...

That's why I didn't put quotes around timid sheephood. Fear and anger do not always go hand in hand. Sometimes fear just runs screaming in to the night. Fear coupled with anger is far more useful than fear alone. Weak-willed people respond with fear. Stronger willed people respond with fear and anger.

which many of us did. Some citizens reported resurrecting their old bomb shelters or constructing new ones. Our government invoked the patriot act. The collective "we" showed the face of fear and, pointing to it, was an enraged president swearing vengeance.

What's wrong with bringing justice to those that did those things? It's better than cowering down in pre-emptive surrender. Would you prefer we simply said "Oh well, I guess we had that one coming"? Just exactly how would you have preferred us to respond to the sight of a group of savages killing thousands of our fellow Americans? What would have been the appropriate response?

Both, dear. Catch up.

Timid people do not go after the perpetrators of their misfortune...instead, they sit around trying to figure out how they brought this on themselves like victims.

See my comment above.

Again, if it was merely fear, then the world would be much happier with us. The victim gets sympathy, those who refuse to be victims, however, don't need sympathy.

 

[OUMoose]

I have to question a couple of points:

Instead, we aggressively went after the terrorist organizations involved, and nations that backed them.

I thought the world was upset at us for aggressively invading a country and occupying it without the country having any proven ties to the "big" terrorist organizations?

Further, our aggressive posture has prevented a large number of further terrorist attacks within the US. That's an impressive achievement given Al-Queda's desire to do so. And this wasn't for lack of trying. Numerous attempts by terrorist cells operating in and outside of the US have been thwarted. Aborted and prevented terrorist attacks don't make big news, so we don't spend a lot of time talking about them. Yet, we've gone from 9/11 to the present day without Al Queda being able to launch another attack on the United States.

Could you link the report that states we've thwarted anything except a few civies from getting on planes, or at least point me in the direction? I think an foiled attempt would be front page news, used by the media to fan the flames of our rampant nationalism.

It is exactly Al-Queda's inability to attack the US directly that has led to stepped up operations within Europe, including Madrid and London. We have become less of a target of opportunity post-9/11. The intelligence and law-enforcement scene post-9/11 has been one success after another. Again, though, successful pro-active intelligence and law-enforcement activity does not make the news, only the failure therein, so it is no surprise we fail to realize the level of success we have had.

I disagree. Our intelligence may be more heavily scrutinized post-atrocity, which by all means is a good thing. This does not make us any less of a target, though. As you had said yourself, these fanatics killed thousands of people in one shot here. They made their statement. If they have to make another one, they will.

 

[Phoenix44]

I agree that it is naive to assume we will not be attacked again within our borders. IMO, we have squandered our resources (and our good will) in Iraq, when we could have pursued Bin Laden, and invested more heavily in port and border security, airport screening, and human intelligence.

By the way, did you forget about the bombing in front of the British Consulate in NYC on May 5, 2005 ?

 

[Bammx2]

Now some of are missing what we HAVE achieved......
Isolationism being one.
Fear and suspision of those who are different from us.
New and totally rediculous laws to RESTRAIN the innocent(NOT protect) like the governments like to spew on almost a daily basis.
Ya know,now they are talking about making it criminal offence here(in the UK) if you leave ANYTHING unattended in public,even if it IS an actual accident.
Innocent people have to basically be stripped search in public just to board a plane.
Busses will be next.then cabs.....BICYCLES?
We're might as well have a neked society to protect the innocent!
I can see it now.......
"Stop squinting at me lady"!
This whole idea of "we're protecting the innocent" is turning out to be a crock.
There have been far more "good guys" killed,imprisoned,detained or whatever,than the bad guys.Why?
They are still being effective while we are losing grip.
And for those who may think I am saying we should be sheep...YOU can get bent.
This a war started by stupid people.Propagated by stupid people.
And being maintained by stupid people.
What would have happened if we didn't do anything but give the bad guys the finger and picked ourselves up and carried on with our lives?
We'll never know at this point since some idiot decided it was his responsibility to police the world at every cost he can muster except his own.
The US is not the world police.
Everybody knows Bush is a liar and an idiot.He's got 3 years left and he's done. You REALY think all this will be over by then? Hell no.
Bush and his cronies go home,fat dumb and happy......and innocent people will still be dying for what he has done.
And with everyone knowing bush is a liar and an idiot.....how ar we supposed to take his messeges when he says:" we are doing this to protect the innocent"?
and thier death toll far out numbers those who we are supposed to be going after.
Ya know what the "bad people" HAVE achieved?!
They got us fighting amongst ourselves.........
THAT is the best "terrorist" trick anyone has ever come up with.

 

[Tgace]

What are these "rights" we are so ready to give up? The Patriot Act? That has been gone over numerous times here. Behind all the hype, most of the fear around the PA is based on myth and misinformation.

See...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24813&page=2&pp=15&highlight=Patriot+Act

for a good discussion about that.

Other than the PA, what else are we discussing? As I remember it, I dont remember anybody running around like a chicken with their head cut off on 9/11. I do remember all the local police departments, fire companies and EMT's sending convoys to NYC to assist in the disaster.