Were ninjas even real?

[Bujingodai]

Much of Japanese Budo history is rooted in ancient myths and legends similar to ancient Greeks. I started training at age 14 in 1979. So of course, I took a deep dive when I first heard about Ninja. I read everything. Then I went to college to study history and was also trained in doing actual research.

I also have had many conversations with career American serviceman who spent their 20 years stationed in Okinawa who studied classical Okinawan Te and Kobudo. There has always been controversial debate on the actual history of Okinawan Te within Ryku Historical society. When asked why the common theme has always been, "Okinawan Karate "Masters" are great bullshitters. Do not be fooled by the movies." They love how the Karate kid has made them money from western karate students seeking true enlightenment from the gurus! They are the ones who fed the old narrative about these legendary farmers defeating Samuria with nothing but kicks, punches and farm tools.

This also goes on in Japan. Japanese love Samuria myths and legends just like we do. They eat up just like we do.
Samurai Fighting Arts



Free ebook on Google by Fumon Tanaka. Tanaka appears to be pacifying historians and believers in Ninjutsu at the same time. Tanaka and Hatsumi must be the greatest athletes in history with claims of 10th dans in every Japanese style of Budo.

Funny how Judo and JKA are not on the list. Both organizations operate similar to Academic Universities. If you have a purple belt from the JKA there is an official record.

Dr. Hatsumi’s teacher traveled on foot through Mongolia challenging Mongols to fights to the death.

I have friends who lived in Mongolia. They seem to have given up on death duels as their main sport. My friend said they only have one true obsession which is basketball.



I think it is time to give credit to the mastermind of creating the way of the Ninja.

I present Akira Kurosawa. One of the greatest film directors and story tellers in history. He was the pioneer of using age old mythological themes that movie people love.

George Lucas gives Kurosawa full credit for Star Wars. Lucas just changed the word Ninja to Sith Lord.

I call Bull **** Do on every Ninjutsu claim, whether from the West or Japan. This includes all Japanese Ninja organizations, diasoke shihan master splinter teachers and sellers of lies. This includes Hatsumi, The Mongolian Assassin and Stephen K Hayes. They made a fortune lselling fantasy. I have heard rumors that George Dillman wished he would have gotten into the racket.


I will leave it with Dr. Stephen Turnbull. The wests greatest Historian on Japanese Military History.

No pay wall.

https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1161&context=jgi

I'm agreeing with you on this. The historical aspect. Nothing seems to be verifiable. After 30 years of it. All I can do is train in what I have learned and apply it the best I can. But I claim no lineage to any of that. I left any large organization in the mid 2000's

 

[Hanshi]

Ninja were real but nothing like what is popularly portrayed in magazines, TV and movies. The martial arts they learned were not much different from what is taught currently. There were some specific things they learned that no legitimate sensei would ever teach in a dojo and likely not even to family.

My grandmaster's teacher was a ninja (sensei found out much later after the teacher was brutally assassinated). We were told up front, whenever teacher's teacher was discussed, that they were taught "things" (read that as how to assassinate) that such things were illegal and dangerous to know. These "forbidden" arts had nothing to do with anything we consider martial arts. This was NO storefront dojo training; it was scary and real. In the book about my grandmaster there's more explanation of the risk and the reasons certain things did not leave their "dojo".

 

[dunc]

Tanaka and Hatsumi must be the greatest athletes in history with claims of 10th dans in every Japanese style of Budo.

Funny how Judo and JKA are not on the list. Both organizations operate similar to Academic Universities. If you have a purple belt from the JKA there is an official record.

What are Hatsumi's claims of 10th dan?
You know he was a judoka right?

 

[Hot Lunch]

I call Bull **** Do on every Ninjutsu claim, whether from the West or Japan. This includes all Japanese Ninja organizations, diasoke shihan master splinter teachers and sellers of lies. This includes Hatsumi, The Mongolian Assassin and Stephen K Hayes. They made a fortune lselling fantasy. I have heard rumors that George Dillman wished he would have gotten into the racket.

I agree with you 100% on this.

If ninjas were as invincible as they're often portrayed (and ninjutsu schools made you that way), the gendai budo established in Japan in the 19th and 20th centuries would be nowhere near as popular as they are. Why get into karate, judo, or aikido when you've had perfectly good - and vastly superior - ninjutsu for centuries?

 

[geezer]

I agree with you 100% on this.

If ninjas were as invincible as they're often portrayed (and ninjutsu schools made you that way), the gendai budo established in Japan in the 19th and 20th centuries would be nowhere near as popular as they are. Why get into karate, judo, or aikido when you've had perfectly good - and vastly superior - ninjutsu for centuries?

Because it's SECRET!

Nobody knew about it until it came out in the movies.

 

[geezer]

What are Hatsumi's claims of 10th dan?
You know he was a judoka right?

A judoka? Oh, I thought you said "a jokah".

BTW if that's a bag of money he's holding, it could just as easily be my old instructor!

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree with you 100% on this.

If ninjas were as invincible as they're often portrayed (and ninjutsu schools made you that way), the gendai budo established in Japan in the 19th and 20th centuries would be nowhere near as popular as they are. Why get into karate, judo, or aikido when you've had perfectly good - and vastly superior - ninjutsu for centuries?

So since no MA can possibly live up to the Hollywood Hype, none of those MA actually exist. Interesting world you live in.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So since no MA can possibly live up to the Hollywood Hype, none of those MA actually exist. Interesting world you live in.

"My" world? You came to that stupid conclusion, not me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

"My" world? You came to that stupid conclusion, not me.

Didn't you just say that ninjas never existed, because they didn't live up to their Hollywood image?
Yup. Just checked. Right up there in Post 24.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Didn't you just say that ninjas never existed, because they didn't live up to their Hollywood image?
Yup. Just checked. Right up there in Post 24.

Please quote the "never existed" part. That, or make an appointment with your neurologist.

 

[geezer]

Please quote the "never existed" part. That, or make an appointment with your neurologist.

Well, I went back and checked post #24 and guess what? You're right. You did not say that ninjas and ninjutsu "never existed".

You did, however "agree 100%" with this quote from Bushidojeff saying, "I call Bull **** Do on every Ninjutsu claim, whether from the West or Japan. This includes all Japanese Ninja organizations..."

Honestly, I can see how this rejection of "every Ninjutsu claim" could be interpreted as a denial of ninjutsu having ever existed. Sounds pretty much like that to me. Pehaps you could clarify your position?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well, I went back and checked post #24 and guess what? You're right. You did not say that ninjas and ninjutsu "never existed".

You did, however "agree 100%" with this quote from Bushidojeff saying, "I call Bull **** Do on every Ninjutsu claim, whether from the West or Japan. This includes all Japanese Ninja organizations..."

Honestly, I can see how this rejection of "every Ninjutsu claim" could be interpreted as a denial of ninjutsu having ever existed. Sounds pretty much like that to me. Pehaps you could clarify your position?

Two things about this:

1. Bushidojeff was speaking in the present tense. This doesn't constitute a denial of something in the past tense. Could he have meant past tense too? Maybe, but I'm not seeing it. In order to accuse me of even believing that ninjas never existed, Dirty Dog would have to conveniently ignore post 16. Which it looks like he did.

2. If Dirty Dog has a problem with what Bushidojeff said, then he needs to address Bushidojeff. I can't speak for Bushidojeff, nor am I responsible for anything he said. If Dirty Dog thinks otherwise, then that would be indicative of him having personal issues with me.

 

[drop bear]

They are real. We had one come to our BJJ class once. Claimed he did real jujitsu and stabbed a guy with an imaginary knife to escape a submission.

Had to have rolling explained to him. Wasn't very good at it.

He still has a class going somewhere. Teaching the deadly arts.

I have been meaning to do a class for giggles.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Ninja were real but nothing like what is popularly portrayed in magazines, TV and movies. The martial arts they learned were not much different from what is taught currently. There were some specific things they learned that no legitimate sensei would ever teach in a dojo and likely not even to family.

My grandmaster's teacher was a ninja (sensei found out much later after the teacher was brutally assassinated). We were told up front, whenever teacher's teacher was discussed, that they were taught "things" (read that as how to assassinate) that such things were illegal and dangerous to know. These "forbidden" arts had nothing to do with anything we consider martial arts. This was NO storefront dojo training; it was scary and real. In the book about my grandmaster there's more explanation of the risk and the reasons certain things did not leave their "dojo".

Ah, yes. The highly secretive okuden, taught by the kaicho only to the select few.

This, right here, happened three days ago.

California bar manager killed after being punched by customer who was asked to leave: police

The manager, whose identity was not revealed, lost consciousness and was not breathing when police arrived on the scene.

nypost.com

Customer kills a bar manager with one punch. I had to search for an instance of this happening on Google, because this didn't get widespread media attention. It's not unusual enough to. Things like this happen all too often for it to be worthy of that much attention.

Killing is easy. Literally anyone can do it, and it requires zero training and very little intelligence - most people sitting in prison right now have two-digit IQ's, and the sub-80 threshold is probably overrepresented in the prison system.

So what's the purpose of keeping okuden a secret? I think it's a bluff. It adds mystique to the art. It gives some people hope that one day they too may belong to a highly exclusive few who know a particular secret.

 

[Gyakuto]

Killing is easy. Literally anyone can do it, and it requires zero training and very little intelligence - most people sitting in prison right now have two-digit IQ's, and the sub-80 threshold is probably overrepresented in the prison system.

Killing someone without a weapon is a little more challenging. Look at what they do to each other in MMA/Boxing!

So what's the purpose of keeping okuden a secret? I think it's a bluff. It adds mystique to the art. It gives some people hope that one day they too may belong to a highly exclusive few who know a particular secret.

No, no, no! You have to pay a little money to enter an ancient ‘triangle’ internship…it’s very exclusive…like owning a Rolex

 

[Hot Lunch]

Killing someone without a weapon is a little more challenging. Look at what they do to each other in MMA/Boxing!

Yeah, but with the exception of people who get off on torture, people who want to kill don't care how the job gets done, as long as it gets done.

With the amount of money that it costs to train martial arts, especially long enough to learn "the secret killing technique," you've already got plenty items in your kitchen drawers, gardening tools, chemicals under the kitchen and bathroom sinks, etc to kill with.

If such secrets exists, the only benefit to learning it is merely being a member of a highly exclusive club.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, but with the exception of people who get off on torture, people who want to kill don't care how the job gets done, as long as it gets done.

With the amount of money that it costs to train martial arts, especially long enough to learn "the secret killing technique," you've already got plenty items in your kitchen drawers, gardening tools, chemicals under the kitchen and bathroom sinks, etc to kill with.

If such secrets exists, the only benefit to learning it is merely being a member of a highly exclusive club.

And we are trying to suggest this is a higher percentage move than a rear naked choke?

Which will kill someone.

 

[isshinryuronin]

"the secret killing technique," you've already got plenty items in your kitchen drawers, gardening tools, chemicals under the kitchen and bathroom sinks, etc to kill with.

If such secrets exists, the only benefit to learning it is merely being a member of a highly exclusive club.

I don't know. There might be a benefit on the receiving end. I think I'd rather be killed by a secret ninja technique than getting clobbered over the head with a shovel. It's a much more dignified way to go.

 

[Bushidojeff]

Two things about this:

1. Bushidojeff was speaking in the present tense. This doesn't constitute a denial of something in the past tense. Could he have meant past tense too? Maybe, but I'm not seeing it. In order to accuse me of even believing that ninjas never existed, Dirty Dog would have to conveniently ignore post 16. Which it looks like he did.

2. If Dirty Dog has a problem with what Bushidojeff said, then he needs to address Bushidojeff. I can't speak for Bushidojeff, nor am I responsible for anything he said. If Dirty Dog thinks otherwise, then that would be indicative of him having personal issues with me.

https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1161&context=jgi

 

[Buka]

Because it's SECRET!

Nobody knew about it until it came out in the movies.

The first time I saw them in a movie, at least a main stream movie, was one of the Bond movies. I think that was in the late sixties, I think.

Then in the early seventies in The Killer Elite. (I think)