We cant be taken to the ground

[dosk3n]

Im sure youve heard people mention it before. They practice Chun fu and when asked about ground fighting they defend by saying they cant be taken to the ground.

We all know this isnt really true.

I like the saying the fight starts standing up, keep it there - the fight ends on the ground, take it there.

Im wondering what techniques you practice to keep it standing up?

Dean.

 

[mook jong man]

People who believe they can't end up on the floor probably also believe that Paris Hilton is a virgin or maybe Lindsay Lohan will one day become a teetotaler.

We practice a variety of different drills for dealing with vertical grappling and on the ground.

These can be anything from the standard wrestling pummeling drills to takedowns and trips from different types of clinch positions , close range striking from clinch positions , eye gouges and face controls , low kicks , knees to the thighs , foot stomps etc.

Against an attempted clinch we will use Wing Chun but if the person puts their head down and changes levels then we will change levels too and deliver an upward elbow to the face .

The further his head and posture goes down then the less striking options there will be available to you , as to raise a knee to his face could result in your leg being under hooked and you thrown on your ****.

So in the first instance we might sprawl depending on how hard and low he is coming in or we might opt to control his head and lead his face down into the concrete or eye rake his face from underneath.

Other things we do are to guide his head down into our chest , get the double underhooks and put pressure on his neck or usually just apply a guillotine choke.

We like to practice all this stuff from chi sau as well so that we can try and detect the attempted shoot or tackle before it has even begun and nip it in the bud.

 

[Danny T]

Im sure youve heard people mention it before. They practice Chun fu and when asked about ground fighting they defend by saying they cant be taken to the ground.

Well, it is quite obvious I am not as well versed as those persons are in my training. I am just beginning to feel my body start to levitate after all these years of study and training. I have started to really work hard on my forms spending several hours each day and believe I feel the difference already. I should soon be unable to be taken down. Training is wonderful.

Did some more training today only this time I did it with a training partner who worked with me slowly increasing the speed of his take-down attempts and the amount of pressure he applied. I actually felt I was levitating a couple of times and would not be able to be taken down but upon reflection realized he was picking me up and dumping me. I was not levitating at all! Oh the pain and discomfort of it all! Oh well back to working the forms; Again!

 

[geezer]

This is an interesting area to consider. Different groups approach this problem differently. Some clubs persist in believing that if your stand-up game is good enough, that's all you need. On the other extreme, some totally embrace grappling, train their own brand of grappling and take on the grapplers at their own game. I take a middle of the road approach and favor the use of a well tested "anti-grappling" curriculum. Now before some of you get all high and mighty on the subject, let me clarify.

By an "anti-grappling" approach, I mean developing strategies to deal with a grappling attack and get back to your best game, rather than fight the other guy's game. So you need to work clinches, learn to counter takedowns, and if you go down, you need to learn how to fall, how to avoid and escape mounts, and how to bring it back to your punching game whether on your feet or on the ground. Basically, I think this is what Mook was saying too.

It's the same strategy any fighter uses. You learn to bring it back to your best range. Yesterday I was training with a Tibetan White Crane stylist. I'd close on him to get to my strongest range, while he kept evading, keeping distance so he could play to his long-bridge game. It's the same for kickers versus boxers. You don't want to confront the other guy on his terms, so you need to know what to do when you get out of your range so you can recover. That's all "anti-grappling" is for WC. It is not the same as a fully developed grappling art.

Now, that said, I have nothing against cross-training. And if you really want to take on a grappler on his own terms, great... start studying a good grappling art. Kamon Guy, for example, studies BJJ. Sounds good to me. But I see that as beyond the scope of WC. IMO, modern, evolving WC needs to confront the reality of today's fighting styles, but it should still focus on what WC does best and not try to be all things to all people.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

*Sigh* and here I thought we'd finally slain the "Style loyalty" monster.....

 

[yak sao]

I don't see it as style loyalty, rather taking one style of fighting and honing it to a fine edge so that you are confident in your abilities when confronted.
As Geezer stated so eloquently, WC's anti grappling is our way of getting back to what we do best.
I think cross training is fantastic. If I had the time I would learn a half dozen systems..... but I don't. I live in the 21st century (man that still soumds weird to me) and there are a multitude of distractions. I'm married, have 2 kids and then there's that whole pesky job thing.
My best shot at being a formidable fighter, given my circumstances is to take something and learn it really well, knowing that when I go into a self defense situation, what I do will have very few exceptions.
Does this mean I think I'm invincible? By no means, but it does give me a sense of peace. More than taking the cherry picking approach: a little of this style, a little of that style....
Doesn't it seem more logical to take your strength and develop it to a higher level, than to take a weakness, let's say grappling, and spend an hour, 3 times a week training it, only to be confronted by someone who is a grappling machine who trains it 3 hours a day, every day, and then try to beat him at his game?

 

[geezer]

Doesn't it seem more logical to take your strength and develop it to a higher level, than to take a weakness, let's say grappling, and spend an hour, 3 times a week training it, only to be confronted by someone who is a grappling machine who trains it 3 hours a day, every day, and then try to beat him at his game?

Good point. But I don't think Andy was arguing with that. I thought he was referring to those whose "style loyalty" blinds them to the weaknesses of whatever their particular style may be. If you don't know your own vulnerabilities, better hope the other guy doesn't find them first!

And as for killing "monsters". Believe it or not, I actually did a college paper on this! Ah college back in the 70's. Anyway, part of what defines a "monster" is that it is really hard to kill. And just when you think you've finally finished it for good, it pops back to life and comes at you again!

 

[Thesemindz]

Doesn't it seem more logical to take your strength and develop it to a higher level, than to take a weakness, let's say grappling, and spend an hour, 3 times a week training it, only to be confronted by someone who is a grappling machine who trains it 3 hours a day, every day, and then try to beat him at his game?

I agree with this point. But I don't think you can be your best if you haven't tested what you do against a variety of resisting attacks, including grappling attacks.

Yes, you can become a stand up striking machine, and box any grappler into submission, but you have to train against dedicated expert grappling attacks in order for that to happen. I'm not going to learn to kill sharks by fighting lions.

I prefer to find out what I'm best at at every range and then work on those techniques. That way I have a plan whether I'm on my feet or on my back.


-Rob

 

[yak sao]

I agree with this point. But I don't think you can be your best if you haven't tested what you do against a variety of resisting attacks, including grappling attacks.

Yes, you can become a stand up striking machine, and box any grappler into submission, but you have to train against dedicated expert grappling attacks in order for that to happen. I'm not going to learn to kill sharks by fighting lions.

I prefer to find out what I'm best at at every range and then work on those techniques. That way I have a plan whether I'm on my feet or on my back.


-Rob

No argument from me......better to test your abilities against someone who knows what they're doing, than someone simply playing a role.
I have a buddy who was a golden glove boxer. You can bet when I tried out my WT vs him, it wasn't exactly play time.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Master the clinch, takedown counters and escapes on the ground from the basic positions and you're being realistic in your avoidance of grappling, anything else is denial.

 

[Vajramusti]

The devil in the details.The stance that I use and teach is both very stable and yet very mobile. It takes a lot of practice and correction. I work on maintaining my platform and destabilizing the other person's platform. You might get a sense of what I mean in my second article for The Journal of Asian Martial Art(JAMA).The article and the accompanying pictures are on my website at <www.tempewingchun.com>
Of course it's possible to be taken down... one must try to spin away and get up.In the worst possible scenario with good training it's still possible to defend oneself with elbow and knee control and knowing your center of gravity and learning how to adjust to the forces at hand while still doing wing chun. I have played my wing chun game against top quality wrestlers, jj people and boxers.I do work on what to do if taken down but spend much more time in developing a wing chun game- even against being taken down.
The key is getting a top quality teacher who knows the art, is experienced and knows how to train individuals.
I have nothing against people wanting to learn, wrestling or jj in addition to wing chun. I just haven't needed to and the same is the case for many of my kung fu brothers/sisters in Tucson and my best students in Tempe or elsewhere..

joy chaudhuri

 

[geezer]

Caltrops!

Yes, it just hit me that the whole solution to this grappling, wrestling, BJJ mania is to carry huge bags of caltrops --you know, those spiky ninja things like oversize "jacks"-- wherever you go. Or anything else really bumpy and sharp. Broken glass bottles, etc. I got the idea when I went back to the city park where I used to practice and they had ripped up some of the nice grass where we trained and replaced it with rough rock landscaping using jagged, fist size pieces of broken granite. You could barely walk on the stuff with hard shoes. Nobody in their right mind would even consider rolling on that!

So next time somebody says, "What do you do against a grappler who takes it to the ground?", just dump out your bag of caltrops and say, "You want to go to the ground? Be my guest... after you."

Man, I really should write more posts like this late at night. I never get ideas like this at normal hours.

 

[Tez3]

Good point. But I don't think Andy was arguing with that. I thought he was referring to those whose "style loyalty" blinds them to the weaknesses of whatever their particular style may be. If you don't know your own vulnerabilities, better hope the other guy doesn't find them first!

And as for killing "monsters". Believe it or not, I actually did a college paper on this! Ah college back in the 70's. Anyway, part of what defines a "monster" is that it is really hard to kill. And just when you think you've finally finished it for good, it pops back to life and comes at you again![/quote]


That's marriage for you though.

 

[hunt1]

First rule. Everyone can be taken down.

Second rule You need dynamic body usage to prevent take downs by skilled people.

For the common double leg shoot the basic lines of wrestling defense are head first hands second legs via sprawl third. Adopt your wing chun usage to these three lines and life vs takedowns gets much easier.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It is very important to talk about this point as there are many martial artists (not just chunners) who insist that they will never get taken to the floor

I have seen in person, certain individuals who are almost impossible to get to the floor. These guys have usually been half my bodyweight and have allowed me to deploy any techniques I wish to get them down. These all failed. Yet, in spite of this, those same martial artists have admitted very freely that there will be times when they will get taken down.

We have to imagine all kinds of scenarios in the fighting world. There is the competition type of fighting, where two guys come from separate corners of the mat/ring/cage knowing full well that they are going to be attacked. However, what a lot of people forget that in the real world, there are times when fights happen spontaneously. Some people are mugged from behind. Some people are pushed up against a car bonnet. Some people are grabbed randomly. This means that those people who practice never getting taken down are caught ‘off guard’

This means that there is a need for overall strategies. Try to keep your feet, but if you get taken down, have an ace up your sleeve

In Kamon we practice a lot of takedown defences, as well as working from the floor in a realistic fashion. We are encouraged to learn BJJ (in seminars etc), but in actual Kamon classes we use more wing chun to improve our core concepts

I would love to meet up with some chunners (especially the guys on here that I have come to respect over the years) to go through some of this stuff as I know some wing chun schools don’t cover it at all

 

[celtic_crippler]

Im sure youve heard people mention it before. They practice Chun fu and when asked about ground fighting they defend by saying they cant be taken to the ground.

We all know this isnt really true.

I like the saying the fight starts standing up, keep it there - the fight ends on the ground, take it there.

Im wondering what techniques you practice to keep it standing up?

Dean.

Bottom line: If you want to ensure you can defend yourself on the ground, you better train for it.

In our curriculum we have "recovery" techniques we practice.

Those are tech's where you're taken down and the focus is on dealing with the takedown and then recovering your footing.

Drills we practice include sprawl drills, and techniques involving sweeps where the focus is getting an attacker off of you so that you can get back up to your feet. (Elevator sweeps, scissor sweeps, etc...)

A well rounded fighter will train in all ranges of combat... including the ground.

 

[Rion]

My Sifu always said that if it works it`s wing chun,and that wing chun is about keeping it simple whats more simple than that.

 

[Bluesman]

Just go do a year of Judo!! You don't even have to grade. Just a bit of full contact randori, learn some throws, throw defense, sweeps & ground fighting!! That should give you most of what you need to complement your existing style!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just a basic horse stance seems to keep me from being on the ground most of the times. I say most of the times because there are times where it takes less energy to roll someone over than to try to remain standing. Staying off the ground for my school is more of a recommendation than a solid rule. I do kung fu and some of the forms have techniques that require the student to be on the ground in order to pull it off. The only solid rule, for us, about being on the ground is to not be on the ground for long.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what techniques you practice to keep it standing up?

Don't let your opponent to get both of your legs.