Warrior Spirit Taught or Instinct

[Cruentus]

Here is my solution. I proposed a definition and a poll here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12959

If you disagree with my definition, speak your mind!

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Black Bear
On the other hand, if you look at the works of Konrad Lorenz and David Grossman, you'll see that a lot of researchers consider it unnatural for intra-species aggression to be lethal, and that things like desensitization and operant conditioning are necessary in order for it to occur.

Oh, oh, you need to look at primates closer. This mammallian family virtually invented lebensraum.

 

[8253]

We all have instincts but it is training that harnesses the power of these instincts.

 

[loki09789]

I don't know how true it is now, but my Psych teacher in High School said that humans are born with two instincts:

Suckling and a fear of falling backwards

Everything else is either learned intellectual processes or emotional reaction or emotionally motivated.

Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

upnorthkyosa, tell me more.

Mr. Prime Minister, your psych teacher is incorrect. Suckling, fear of falling, and fear of loud noises are among the first instincts that are apparent in infancy, but there's also instinctual recognition of the human face (Fantz 1963), crying/smiling and other attachment-related behaviours, and some others. Even though they do not manifest in childhood, there a case to be made that things like fear of snakes, spiders, heights, and darkness are instinctual because they are acquired more readily than fear of guns, cars, and electrical outlets, even though the latter are far more hazardous in modern environments (Seligman and Hagar, 1972). There are tons of other examples. I did my undergrad thesis on the restorative effects of the presence of natural vegetation in the visual environment, and showed that people are naturally attracted to certain tree forms regardless of cultural background.

 

[loki09789]

Makes sense, and thanks...maybe that would explain the

Ripe fruit "peach" or "apple/plum" analogies to a girls bottom

or the orchid, flower's in general, as a metaphor for.... well you know.

Paul M

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Black Bear
upnorthkyosa, tell me more.

Observations of primate species indicate a prediliction to intense xenophobia. Specific invaders in primate habitats are very often treated with death by dismemberment. The corpses of such victims are then cannabalized. This has also been observed in the fossil record of homo habilis, homo erectus, and homo sapian. Bones of obviously different genotypes have been found scored with weaponmarks and the imprints of hominid teeth. It is therefore theorized that lebensraum is an adaptation in hominids. Furthermore, this characteristic exhibits itself mostly in times where resources are severely limited. ei...overpopulation.

 

[Black Bear]

Oh, right. I read about that stuff. I just wasn't familiar with lebensraum.

I said that this was one line of thought, not mine.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Black Bear
On the other hand, if you look at the works of Konrad Lorenz and David Grossman, you'll see that a lot of researchers consider it unnatural for intra-species aggression to be lethal, and that things like desensitization and operant conditioning are necessary in order for it to occur.

I was making the point that I think their research is not taking into account a primate specific view point. If you look at our family of mammals, lebensraum, or "all out war of attrition" is natural. Primates kill each other and other primate species all of the time.

 

[Eldritch Knight]

True. Humans (and primates in general) have defined themselves as being seperate from the mainstream animal populace by engaging in intra-species rivalry and violence. I believe Grossman even mentioned this (or at least this is how I understood it)

 

[Black Bear]

Eldritch, Grossman was most likely referring to others like Lorenz when he talked about those sorts of things. IIRC all he did himself was stuff within the armed forces, having to do with the disinhibition of lethal violence through desensitization, and classical and operant conditioning.

No one ever claimed that intra-species violence (even outside of the primate order) was rare. Only that it was rarely lethal. Rivalry and violence, as you say, is everywhere in the animal kingdom.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Black Bear
Eldritch, Grossman was most likely referring to others like Lorenz when he talked about those sorts of things. IIRC all he did himself was stuff within the armed forces, having to do with the disinhibition of lethal violence through desensitization, and classical and operant conditioning.

No one ever claimed that intra-species violence (even outside of the primate order) was rare. Only that it was rarely lethal. Rivalry and violence, as you say, is everywhere in the animal kingdom.

I was making the point that violence among primates IS lethal, more often then not. Lebensraum.

 

[loki09789]

BB and UpNorth, if you can edumacate me... educate/medicate? no, just educate me please...

Is it a valid observation that the higher up the 'intelligence' scale in the animal kingdom, the more real and lethal the violence becomes.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Mating competition for mates in wolves/deer/...and lower species is intense but causes few serious injuries

But

as you move up the ladder, when chimps/gorrillas and humans commit violent acts it is less ritual and more lethal.

Some nature shows and documentaries try to pose this point as a way of promoting the 'perfection' of nature. I don't know, I see it in cycles and patterns not as much as perfection.

UpNorth,

I get your point about violence and the 4 Noble truths, good one too. It is tough to make philosophy fit reality, unfortunately any Buddhist purists facing lethal danger are probably all dead

Paul M.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by loki09789
It is tough to make philosophy fit reality, unfortunately any Buddhist purists facing lethal danger are probably all dead

I can't agree with that as the whole emergence of CMA was in the buddhist philosophy of avoidence of violence. The idea is that by using kung fu you are not extending violence to the attacker, but refusing to accept his violence and simply sending it back to him. He hurts himslef. Its the basis of mantis kung fu at least, the plucking, folowing, using their energy against them. No, I would say that most true buddhist purists lived long healthy lives at least after Bohdidarma.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

It was a joke

 

[Black Bear]

Originally posted by loki09789
Is it a valid observation that the higher up the 'intelligence' scale in the animal kingdom, the more real and lethal the violence becomes.

I'm not an animal behaviour guy and I really don't know. I don't think it would be a fair statement in general. I remember having this discussion at the JKD forum at mma.tv, about how intra-species violence is supposedly rarely lethal. And then a librarian posted something from a book he'd previewed, about these higher apes of some sort who were not only lethal in their settling of disputes, but pretty sadistic and gruesome by the sounds of it. He couldn't remember the source, otherwise I would have noted it. So you'd better go with what upyours says on this. I mean, upnorth. (a joke) :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Black Bear
So you'd better go with what upyours says on this. I mean, upnorth. (a joke) :asian:

Nice :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

I have known some women who wouldn't fight if their life depended on it.
I say you wouldn't fight for your life if you are attacked? Somehow they think they might get out of it better if they submit.

Same for the women who join "kickboxing", they don't want to learn self defense - not really. They are afraid they are going to get hurt in sparring even though we explain they can hit us - the black belts, but at white belt we can't even hardly touch them. Still they drop out.

Most women I think have buried their warrior spirit pretty far down if its there at all. Way less than .1% of the women in my town are in martial arts.

 

[Fortis]

What Paul said ^^^

Btw Paul, great sig.

 

[chidarake]

By warriors spirit do you mean snap someone's arm because they threw a punch at you. I belive we all have some sort of reaction when were atacked but if your talking about the spirit of instead of breaking their arm you just turn the other cheek and let them have fun swinging and still be able to forgive them...I am a warrior of Christ.