Wall bag punching

ed-swckf

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monji112000 said:
Any target will help develop correct structure. Alignment.. hmm I would say using a human or a wooden dummy would help more. Energy at the last inch? I will leave that one alone.. :D Seeing that we will for sure disagree drastically.

How does the dummy help you get used to alligning your fist correctly? And why would you disagree with energy in the last inch, its a basic tennent of wing chun training.

monji112000 said:
If he will answer my question, I am sure he will explain himself.
The problem with a wall bag is that the wall doesn't give way. its like kicking a tree, it can really hurt your legs.
The only punches you can use are chain punches on the wall bag. I can train my chain punches better with a heavy bag.JMO

it has a certain amount of give, its really not like kicking a tree at all and you can use all kinds of punches, finger strikes, palm strikes etc. not just chain punches - at least everyone else in the wing chun world manages too. But as you are prepared to dispute last inch energy perhaps they way you punch is drastically different to the wing chun i have been exposed to in my time.

monji112000 said:
Actually i was refering to when I first started WC I purchased one at a local Kung FU store. I hung it on a wall . I was just learning how to turn my horse and I made a small dent in the wall. I wasn't very good at turning my horse then.

Well that doesn't fault the apperatus but rather your approach to and usage of the apperatus.


monji112000 said:
I am sure I could do much worse with other punches like B&A ect.. Maybe your style of Wing Chun doesn't use any other punches only Chain punches. Then I guess this would be perfect.

I train the full range of attacks on the wall bag with exception to elbow strikes, pheonix eye and ginger fist. But neither would i train them on a heavy bag.


monji112000 said:
You can train your wrist and knuckles for impact with a pair of MMA gloves and a strong heavy bag.

Never suggested you couldn't.

monji112000 said:
You can work on 75% of our techniques with full power. It will help with cardio, with making sure you sit on your horse with strong punches ect..

A proper wall bag reigeme can provide this also.

monji112000 said:
Thai heavy bags are the best!
You can hit full power for all your punches, kicks, and even low shin kicks. You can practice upper cuts and hooks. If you want to condition your shins, you can do Thai round kicks (its not wing Chun but its good for conditioning. ECT..

Well i'm sure manufacturers of thai heavy bags are very happy for your seal of approval.

monji112000 said:
The Rings force you to have in correct bong sao and tan sao. your power isn't going straight when you have to keep them from falling off your hands.

The only reason they are used is to correct mistaken elbow allingment, if you have a correct sized one it won't fall off your hands, you aren't supposed to roll with them at the wrists but rather at the elbows this also eliminates it falling off your hands. So many people have no idea how to use rattan rings its not supprising but the reason is they are rarely needed for any great length of time that the whole purpose gets misconstrued.

monji112000 said:
Each form focuses on different aspects of generating power.
First form the horse, second the hips, third the shoulder/back.
You don't need to learn all the forms to learn those aspects.
actually I would use the wall bag if I can find a logical reason for it. I was thinking about ordering a speed bag aswell.
I respect your views, I was looking for tangible reason for them. It still seems like a heavy bag is better if you have the room.

There is nothing in sui nim tao or chum kui that can be trained on a heavy bag and not a wall bag - theres the logic right there. When it comes to bui tze you are best of looking at more focus mit work and padded up partner work. I still haven't seen a reason why a wall bag has no tangible reason it just comes down to you not thinking you can train with it in ways which everyone else manages too. So get yourself the heavy bag as theres no way you will be open to any reason to get a wall bag anyway, it seems your mind is set. I have no problem with heavy bags, i think they are great but i also have no problem with wall bags as a viable training tool.
 

monji112000

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Well lets just agree to disagree. I have been told that Duncan and Allen's style of WC isn't like others. I guess I am noticing that more and more.
How does the dummy help you get used to alligning your fist correctly?
Ah we were talking about two different alignments. Any hard target can teach you how to align your fist. I was referring to the act of hitting and how you must take into count the persons limbs. So when you Jam in with a punch and pak sao you are siting in your horse and jaming the correct angle and speed. Its really helpful to have a real hand or A wooden dummy to give you a target for your pak sao. OR you will have to really use your imagination.
I have never noticed it to be hard to punch with the correct fist alignment. Please explain or give a picture.
it has a certain amount of give, its really not like kicking a tree at all and you can use all kinds of punches, finger strikes, palm strikes etc. not just chain punches - at least everyone else in the wing chun world manages too
Your wall has a certain amount of give? Yes the Bag does give a small amount.. but you can't hit the target with full power because its against your wall. Maybe if you position it directly against a Supporting Beam that may work. But still Very little Give.
And why would you disagree with energy in the last inch, its a basic tennent of wing chun training.
I would assume you are referring to the “1 inch “ punch as in the movie Kill Bill. LOL
The power that you generate isn't related to your wrist its related to your whole body. Each component of the Wing Chun stance. If you are punching with full Power you are going to harm your wall, maybe if you limited to only punching from 1 inch away this would work. BUT its really only good for showing off. I understand others don't believe this so I didn't want to go into it deeply. Its a stupid topic, that is talked about way too much by Bruce Lee fans.
Hmm Phoenix eye, ginger fist? you must really be training another style of Wing Chun than me. What the heck is Ginger fist? Does your style use Uppercuts and hooks? What about Bow and Arrow punches? You stike the wall bag with elbows? WOW you must be flush up against the wall when you do that.
You could be correct about the rings, from what I have seen its completely useless. I will have to try it the way you say and see what comes of it.
There is nothing in sui nim tao or chum kui that can be trained on a heavy bag and not a wall bag - theres the logic right there.
I think we can agree to disagree. The wall bag seems to be good for small spaces, and toughening your knuckles.:asian:

Have you tried shock up push ups? I think they would be something you would be very interested in.
 

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Your wall has a certain amount of give? Yes the Bag does give a small amount.. but you can't hit the target with full power because its against your wall. Maybe if you position it directly against a Supporting Beam that may work. But still Very little Give.

Hitting the wallbag at full power? You do realise that it only takes a few pounds of pressure to break the human nose? The power you do learn to employ by hitting a wall bag will be more than sufficient to give most people something think about while they're spitting their teeth out in A&E/ER or whatever you wanna call it.

You learn to hit a target with little give in it, and then smack something that does and I think you'll see the difference, I think there's validity in that. Wallbags are ok, heavy bags are ok, both have advantages. I don't see any reason not to use a wallbag, and will be purchasing one just as soon as I can.

At the end of the day, a wall bag is but one training aid, let's not get too caught up in which aid is the be all and end all.
 

ed-swckf

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monji112000 said:
Well lets just agree to disagree. I have been told that Duncan and Allen's style of WC isn't like others. I guess I am noticing that more and more.

Is this in reference to the whole post or a significant part. If you want to agree to disagree then why continue to post your disargreement to the things i say?

monji112000 said:
Ah we were talking about two different alignments. Any hard target can teach you how to align your fist. I was referring to the act of hitting and how you must take into count the persons limbs. So when you Jam in with a punch and pak sao you are siting in your horse and jaming the correct angle and speed. Its really helpful to have a real hand or A wooden dummy to give you a target for your pak sao. OR you will have to really use your imagination.

Why would be even talking about pak sau in a discussion about heavy bags and wall bags? Not any hard object will suffice for aligning knuckles, wrist and elbows of a punch, and that goes for other striking techniques also.

monji112000 said:
I have never noticed it to be hard to punch with the correct fist alignment. Please explain or give a picture.

boxing punches with a different fist allignment as does karate, the correct allignment for wing chun means having no weak link from where the power is coming from to where it is going. If for instance you are trying to punch with your elbows down and strike with your index knuckle you will have a misallignment and thus be unable to deliver the full power of the strike. This can happen at any joint - knuckle, wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip etc. I'm supprised you were never given an insight into the correct way to punch in regards to wing chun by your sifu. For the record i'm not saying boxing or katarte punches wrong it just uses different principles to wing chun.

monji112000 said:
Your wall has a certain amount of give? Yes the Bag does give a small amount.. but you can't hit the target with full power because its against your wall. Maybe if you position it directly against a Supporting Beam that may work. But still Very little Give.

I don't recall ever saying my wall had give. So now you say the bags gives where as before it didn't give at all? Well please explain to me why i have no problems punishing my wallbag?

monji112000 said:
I would assume you are referring to the 1 inch punch as in the movie Kill Bill. LOL

Are you seriously saying that is the only place you have heard of last inch energy?


monji112000 said:
The power that you generate isn't related to your wrist its related to your whole body.

Wrist strangely enough plays a part in the inch punch, hard as it may be for you to believe. I never said that it relied solely on the wrist did i?

monji112000 said:
Each component of the Wing Chun stance.

And each component of making a punch.


monji112000 said:
If you are punching with full Power you are going to harm your wall,

Harm the wall? oh please.

monji112000 said:
maybe if you limited to only punching from 1 inch away this would work.

This illustrates you don't really understand what last inch energy is, when you punch is your fist tightly clenched and is there tension in your arm during the whole course of that punch?

monji112000 said:
BUT its really only good for showing off.

so theres no value in last inch energy? Well that would be widley disputed. basically we are talking about fa ging - a refined use of energy found throught wing chun.

monji112000 said:
I understand others don't believe this so I didn't want to go into it deeply. Its a stupid topic, that is talked about way too much by Bruce Lee fans.

It really is nothing to do with bruce lee at all.

monji112000 said:
Hmm Phoenix eye, ginger fist? you must really be training another style of Wing Chun than me. What the heck is Ginger fist?

This is found with yip man lineages although some have removed them for reasons i'm unsure of. SOme say its because they were thought to dangerous because they focus temple strikes and throat strikes. Personally i think thats a good reason to teach them rather than remove them. Have a search around for them. You might know them as gurn gee kuen (ginger fist) or fung ngan kuen or fung an kuen (phoenix eye knuckle)

Heres two maxims of the bui tze form:

  • Fak Sau, Ginger punch and Guide bridge; their movements are closely coordinated and hard to defend and nullify.
  • The Phoenix eye punch has no compassion
monji112000 said:
Does your style use Uppercuts and hooks? What about Bow and Arrow punches? You stike the wall bag with elbows? WOW you must be flush up against the wall when you do that.

No, i don't use elbows on heavy bags or wall bags, upper cuts in a wing chun manner i do train on wall bag. Would you say your wing chun is at all reminiscent of boxing?




monji112000 said:
You could be correct about the rings, from what I have seen its completely useless. I will have to try it the way you say and see what comes of it.

Unless you have a mistake to correct you won't find any benifit.

monji112000 said:
I think we can agree to disagree. The wall bag seems to be good for small spaces, and toughening your knuckles.:asian:

And plenty more besides, its a shame you are unable to see that.

monji112000 said:
Have you tried shock up push ups? I think they would be something you would be very interested in.

Why would i be interested in them?
 

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If anything i'd use the wall bag to increase my punching power. Everything else it'd use a heavybag
 

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MMAfighter said:
If anything i'd use the wall bag to increase my punching power. Everything else it'd use a heavybag

Everything else like what?
 

monji112000

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lets just agree to disagree about the wall bag.

again could you explain the ginger punch. I am familiar with Phoenix Eye, I had not seen it in WC but I don't know the last form so I can't make a comment.
Why did I mention Pak sao? because I don't just use pak sao alone, its coupled with a punch. SO using the heavy bag can work your Pak sao Indirectly.

Yes I figured you were talking about a basic Wing Chun fist. It seems very easy to grasp.. doesn't it? Wouldn't any target including focus pads work?
its common sense not to be tense until impact. MostMartial Arts say this.
I am think I am getting lost with your terms. What do you mean by last inch? I think I am talking about something different than you.
fa ging is a general concept, its also in Tai Chi and other CMA. I would consider The WIng Chun Horse and "turning the horse" as fa ging.
Monk Shi Yan Ming has explained it rather well
http://www.shaolinwolf.com/morechitrainharder/stances1.htm
I
No The power generated in WC for the hook and the uppercut are not the same as boxing. They both are completely related to your horse stance and how you use it. Actually you can replace them with palm strikes its really not that much of a difference. I do enjoy boxing and Thai Boxing allot. They are both very good striking arts.

Since it seems like your talking about the fist, and the last second of a punch. Shock up push ups are very good for getting your fist strong enough to take the impact. They also work your shoulder/shoulder blade. It also can strengthen your wrist.
Got a clip of the Ginger punch or a pic? What type of foot work do you use the Pheonix fist with? what targets? Since you are hiting with the knuckles out you prob have to hit soft targets.
 

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monji112000 said:
lets just agree to disagree about the wall bag.


Ok, so no more discourse on wall bags?

monji112000 said:
again could you explain the ginger punch. I am familiar with Phoenix Eye, I had not seen it in WC but I don't know the last form so I can't make a comment.

http://www.mg-3d.com/ginger.jpg

monji112000 said:
Why did I mention Pak sao? because I don't just use pak sao alone, its coupled with a punch. SO using the heavy bag can work your Pak sao Indirectly.

Sounds a very odd thing to interject in this discussion.

monji112000 said:
Yes I figured you were talking about a basic Wing Chun fist. It seems very easy to grasp.. doesn't it? Wouldn't any target including focus pads work?

Focus pads are really good training aid also.

monji112000 said:
its common sense not to be tense until impact. MostMartial Arts say this.
I am think I am getting lost with your terms. What do you mean by last inch? I think I am talking about something different than you.


what do you train in the second section of sui nim tao?

monji112000 said:
fa ging is a general concept, its also in Tai Chi and other CMA. I would consider The WIng Chun Horse and "turning the horse" as fa ging.

Fa ging is a refined use of energy it is associated with the explosive energy of wing chun or bau ja geng

monji112000 said:
Since it seems like your talking about the fist, and the last second of a punch. Shock up push ups are very good for getting your fist strong enough to take the impact.

I already have a particular training method for this hung up on my wall. I'm trying to avoid mentioning it though.

monji112000 said:
They also work your shoulder/shoulder blade. It also can strengthen your wrist.

I already have a particular training method for this hung up on my wall.


monji112000 said:
Got a clip of the Ginger punch or a pic? What type of foot work do you use the Pheonix fist with? what targets? Since you are hiting with the knuckles out you prob have to hit soft targets.

I'd suggest asking your sifu about the techniques as you aren't paying me enough to give a lesson:)
 

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Yes I thought you were referring to that punch, Everyone has different names for every technique. Even in Chinese things aren't always the same name. I thank you but I don't think I would find much use of a lesson. I was only trying to spur friendly conversation about different Ideas.

I can give you a better answer to the First form question IF you tell me were you consider the second section starts and clip of your version of the form.

Again I was trying to spur friendly conversation and see if you are familiar with Shock ups.:flame:

 

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monji112000 said:

Yes I thought you were referring to that punch, Everyone has different names for every technique. Even in Chinese things aren't always the same name. I thank you but I don't think I would find much use of a lesson. I was only trying to spur friendly conversation about different Ideas.

I can give you a better answer to the First form question IF you tell me were you consider the second section starts and clip of your version of the form.

Again I was trying to spur friendly conversation and see if you are familiar with Shock ups.:flame:



Shock ups if you are talking about what I think are okay but train something different than wall bags ( no root)
To me wall bags are partially like pre-training for the wooden man.
Wall bags arent a replacement for the heavy bag, and the heavy bag definitely wont give you what you will get from a wall bag.

THere are many ways to hit hard, somethings you hit will give some wont,but something must give somehow, somewhere.
 

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I've enjoyed reading this thread. I suggest those really interested in this type of training find an instructor, if your lucky enough, to teach you training such mentioned and more. Those instructors with experience in iron palm training are rare and few but, to train under one is even rarer and fewer. Seek one out and if your lucky, your Martial Arts education and life will change for the positive- and I stress the positive.
Many are looking for quick results- it takes time- much time.
As an example without going into specific details I'll give one type of training with the heavy bag- a different heavy bag that starts out light.
Fill a canvas bag with 20 lbs of sand and hang it freely. Practice strikes of all types from all angles, with various stances, incorporate foot/body movements. After 6 months add 5 more lbs to the bag. After 15 years of this type of training you are playing with 175 lbs, as if it were 25 lbs.
Obviously, there is so much more to this, including the mental and spiritual, but I hope I've added something for all to this thread.

Bill Shovan
 

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bshovan said:
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I suggest those really interested in this type of training find an instructor, if your lucky enough, to teach you training such mentioned and more. Those instructors with experience in iron palm training are rare and few but, to train under one is even rarer and fewer. Seek one out and if your lucky, your Martial Arts education and life will change for the positive- and I stress the positive.
Many are looking for quick results- it takes time- much time.
As an example without going into specific details I'll give one type of training with the heavy bag- a different heavy bag that starts out light.
Fill a canvas bag with 20 lbs of sand and hang it freely. Practice strikes of all types from all angles, with various stances, incorporate foot/body movements. After 6 months add 5 more lbs to the bag. After 15 years of this type of training you are playing with 175 lbs, as if it were 25 lbs.
Obviously, there is so much more to this, including the mental and spiritual, but I hope I've added something for all to this thread.

Bill Shovan

Cool post, good advice. I've tried checking the net for any local iron palm practitioners in my area, no joy. I'll be getting a wall bag fairly soon too.

Kensai
 

ed-swckf

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monji112000 said:

Yes I thought you were referring to that punch, Everyone has different names for every technique. Even in Chinese things aren't always the same name. I thank you but I don't think I would find much use of a lesson. I was only trying to spur friendly conversation about different Ideas.


Interesting how thats the names refered to in the maxims of the third form though.

No use for a lesson? wow you must know it all then!! Perhaps we should all get a lesson from you.

monji112000 said:
I can give you a better answer to the First form question IF you tell me were you consider the second section starts and clip of your version of the form.

http://closed.vingtsunupdate.com/ymslt.wmv

The second section starts after the first section, starting when the left arm drops to the side followed by the right - the motions known as jaw wan gum sau followed by yau wan gum sau.


monji112000 said:
Again I was trying to spur friendly conversation and see if you are familiar with Shock ups.:flame:

Yes and i was simply letting you know that i already have an apperatus that trains these muscle groups and there was nothing unfreindly about it.
 

monji112000

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[FONT=Utopia, serif]
Interesting how thats the names refered to in the maxims of the third form though.
really? the maxim is in english? ENGLISH NAMES,trans. names and chin. names are not the same across the table.

No use for a lesson? wow you must know it all then!! Perhaps we should all get a lesson from you.

A good lesson is welcome always, I try to take one 3 times a week. I just didn't think I would learn anything from your offer.



you do relize that the form has been changed by people don't you. Its not 100% set in stone, and I am sure Ip man himself changed things many times during his life.

That being said I would not personally change the form.

Sorry again I don't speak Chinese. BUT I do know the form you showed.

That first part of the second section has a few diff ideas relating to it. one being ..[/FONT]

[FONT=Utopia, serif]It shows the max reach you have in all directions without moving or losing your horse.[/FONT]


[FONT=Utopia, serif]Are you implying that it shows the Idea of the last inch ? I am still lost with this term.[/FONT]
 

ed-swckf

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monji112000 said:
really? the maxim is in english? ENGLISH NAMES,trans. names and chin. names are not the same across the table.

I'm aware of this, so what do you refer to the pheonix eye and ginger fist as?



monji112000 said:
A good lesson is welcome always, I try to take one 3 times a week. I just didn't think I would learn anything from your offer.

There was no offer of a lesson though? This is why you wouldn't learn anything, you would need to pay attention, and you can learn something from anyone. You appear to me to be responding to the idea of learning from me as something that couldn't happen perhaps because of somekind of staus issue or applied egotism9i hope i'm wrong but its how its comming accross) - i mean why would you want to spur conversation on ideas with me if you really don't think you can learn from anything i offer?



monji112000 said:
you do relize that the form has been changed by people don't you.

Yes, i love seeing different varieties of wing chun

monji112000 said:
Its not 100% set in stone, and I am sure Ip man himself changed things many times during his life.

In fact he was renowned for making a lot of significant changes

monji112000 said:
That being said I would not personally change the form.

Ok

monji112000 said:
Sorry again I don't speak Chinese. BUT I do know the form you showed.

The englsh would be left lying pinning hand and right lying pinning hand. The pinning bit comes from "gum" which is a cantonese term meaning to pin, limit, curb, restrain, subdue or to tame - pin is generally the most descrptive and unique english way to translate the word as a lot of words in cantonese have similar meanings that have uniquity in cantonese that is lost when translated. For example the term "fook" can also mean to limit, restrain, subdue or tame.

monji112000 said:
That first part of the second section has a few diff ideas relating to it. one being ..It shows the max reach you have in all directions without moving or losing your horse.

Well observed.


monji112000 said:
Are you implying that it shows the Idea of the last inch ? I am still lost with this term.

Yes, the section does deal with refined use of energy in the last inch (or last few inches). I'm sorry you are lost with it.
 

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