Villari's Eleven Hands of Buddha?

[monkey-a-go-go]

Anyone familiar with this part of Villari's kempo? It includes the methods of cutting, monkey, dragon, upholding, deflecting and some others as his style progresses to shaolin influenced stuff. The names are similar to some methods in an old Robert W. Smith book "Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing". I haven't found much else and just am curious. Thanks.

 

[bignick]

There was a whole thread about Mr. Villari here...


Run a search on him here and you'll find quite a bit as well...

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Thank you. I had previously waded through all the back and forth regarding Mr. Villari and only noted the reference to the Plum Tree blocking method. I had done some Googling also. With such a large syllabus it may be minor among the whole I guess. It was just one of those things that I somehow got curious about LOL and started digging around.

 

[kempo108]

the 11 hands of buddha is basically 11 different types of blocks. hard, soft, deflecting,trapping,pushing,pulling,stop hitting,slipping,cutting,dragon,scissoring,etc. you can prob. come up with more than 11. the number 11 was taught to me as a guide line to work on different blocks. hope that helped.

 

[Karazenpo]

I still think the the three best forms of Shaolin Kempo are Honsuki, Sho Tung Kwok and Swift Tigers, although I practice Prof. Nick Cerio's 'Circle of the Panther' of which 'Swift Tigers' is the Villari version.) These three forms are all inter-related, well balanced with plenty of knowledge. Another thing I like is if you look at SK's Honsuki (also spelled Hansuki), the first two opening sequences after the salutation are the seven rapid fire hand strikes, then look at the next form you learn after Honsuki, Sho Tung Kwok, after the salutation, you have a sequence of rapid fire blocking, it sort of compliments Honsuki with a defense against a rapid fire hand attack, know what I mean? There are also 'commonalities' of movements between the three forms. When I practice 'Circle of the Panther', I see it's relationship with the other two forms, you can tell Villari came from Cerio. Just mastering those three can get the job done! Same can be said for NCK's 'Circle of the Tiger' (inspired from Shaolin Kempo's #1 Kata*) which is the nucleus of his kenpo system. Throw that in the mix and you're set for life, lol. Just my opinion.............

*Actually, Shaolin Kempo's #1 Kata is a version (very close) to Sijo Gascon's 'original' first form of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu taught to Prof. Cerio by Gm. Pesare who in turn learned it from Sijo Gascon with of course Gm. Villari learning it from Prof. Cerio.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Thank you for the replies fellows. I was doing some winter cleaning the other night, having a few *sodas*, and came across Smiths old book. I thumbed through it and saw an opportunity to dodge the chores my fiancee gave me. The closest references of those terms I found came from Villari's site and were almost verbatim from the book. It was published in 1964 and seemed like the only western reference for shaolin for quite a while. I just wondered if Mr. Villari might have been influenced by the book. The "Eight Hand Methods" are deflections, escapes, chin na, and vital point strikes used in defence. Not much detail.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you for the replies fellows. I was doing some winter cleaning the other night, having a few *sodas*, and came across Smiths old book. I thumbed through it and saw an opportunity to dodge the chores my fiancee gave me. The closest references of those terms I found came from Villari's site and were almost verbatim from the book. It was published in 1964 and seemed like the only western reference for shaolin for quite a while. I just wondered if Mr. Villari might have been influenced by the book. The "Eight Hand Methods" are deflections, escapes, chin na, and vital point strikes used in defence. Not much detail.

Monkey, I think I might have that book at my school. I'll have to check. There is not much reference where Gm. Villari got his Chinese influenced material but I'll throw this out and see what happens. Cerio took Villari to his workouts with Ed Parker back in the later part of the 60's. I believe Parker was really into the Chinese arts back then and trained under several west coast notables. Look at Parker's Infinite Insights into Kenpo, I think volume 5, it has a movement called 'the heart', which is a way to dispatch three attackers closing in on you, one at 3 o'clock grabbing you right shoulder, one at 9 o'clock grabbing your left shoulder and one at 12 o'clock who's ready to whack you. The technique is designed to strike all three and create an opening between 9 and 12 and escape. This movement is also exactly the same as the last movement in the Plum Tree Blocking System of Shaolin Kempo that I was taught back in the 70's. Cerio, while teaching Villari, also made several trips to Hawaii during that time frame to study with Prof. Chow, who also favored the Chinese arts. My theory being, maybe Villari picked up some influence from Parker back then, some from Cerio and maybe the rest from books and later videos. Hey, Bruce Lee took a lot of knowledge from his vast personal library of books and Prof. Cerio took what he called 1-5 Pinan of his original system he taught Gm. Villari from one of Mas Oyama's books. Why not? I believe Mr. Villari made at least one trip to Hawaii w/o Cerio after they departed ways in 1971, so he may have picked up a little kung fu then also. Hey, Prof. Chow took a little kung fu he learned from his father, blended it into Mitose's Kenpo and seemed to have done quite well with it. Just my guess, that's all.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Thanks for the Prof. Shuras, you're always spot on. The book was edited by Smith from an older chinese boxing text and as simple as it appears has a bit more insight to it than at first glance. I had heard Villari studied in the Carribean but don't know if it held up. The North East has its share of kung fu people also like chan pui (sp. LOL)'s wah lum and such. Happy Holidays.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thanks for the Prof. Shuras, you're always spot on. The book was edited by Smith from an older chinese boxing text and as simple as it appears has a bit more insight to it than at first glance. I had heard Villari studied in the Carribean but don't know if it held up. The North East has its share of kung fu people also like chan pui (sp. LOL)'s wah lum and such. Happy Holidays.

Thank you, Monkey. I studied Wah Lum Kung Fu out here under one of Chan Poi's (I've seen it spelled Pui also,lol) people, Sifu Dave Simione who was under Sifu Bob Rosen. I did a demo under the direct supervision of Master Chan Poi in Boston around 1990 to a packed house. As far as Gm. Villari goes, that's all I know. I was told last year by someone out here that he studied Chinese Kung Fu under his brother-in-laws but from own recollection and that of Hanshi Craig Seavey, Gm. Villari's brother-in-laws were black belts in Shotokan. So much for that guys info, lol. Hey, Professor Mike, if you happen to read this post, guess who gave me that info? Yep, you got it!

Merry Christmas, "Joe"

 

[Karazenpo]

Here's something else to throw in the mix as to Gm. Villari's link to Chinese Kung Fu. Some of his early and most senior black belts studied the Chinese arts in the Boston area way back when, one in particular is the highly talented Master John Fritz. Perhaps guys like John shared this information with Gm. Villari. I remember in the late 70's a good friend of mine, Chuck Longo was a black belt under Ron Thieverge of the He Il Cho lineage and we used to work out together and exchange information. (Chuck was also great with his hands, he gave me my first boxing lesson in college). Mr. Villari was aware of this and let me teach a segment of a black belt workout on the Korean jump & spinning kicks, I was honored, especially since some in the class were my seniors. So, he was pretty good about all of us sharing knowledge with each other that was gained from outside the kempo system.

 

[Karazenpo]

One other thing that I found to be very interesting. Remember I pointed out Parker's 'Heart' technique in his book and it's relationship to the last sequence of the Plum Tree Blocking System? Well, go to John Bishop's Kajukenbo page and review that short video of Professor Chow's demo. Check out the soft blocks and their back and forth movements to block two strikes. Look familiar? How about the opening sequences of the Plum Tree? Take a look at Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Blocking Form 5...........Plum Tree connection or what? The Chow/Parker/Cerio/Villari link seems more and more obvious as you look a little beneath the surface of these arts and the Chinese Kung Fu connection...............very obvious! It seems most early kenpoists drifted toward the Chinese roots of kenpo. Chow did, Emperado did, Leoning did, Gascon did, Parker did, Tracys' did, Cerio did, Villari did, etc. Just something to think about.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

I used to drive by the wah lum temple in orlando often pre-internet and now wished i checked out. I thought it was too good to be true. I think it also had a travel agency on the grounds. Adjacent to it was a biker bar. A B-movie fight scene in the making lol. As to the chinese drift I would guess it also has alot to do with maturity in your art and in age. Less brute force, more evasion, better mechanics and flow. Hawaiian kenpo went further back to find this maybe. Hohan Soken and other old stream okinawans had this already and their students from the modern era had to learn it. I think coming from the streets or being young or those returning from the service brought with them and taught a harder style that may not have been intended. The differences in the interpretations of Funakoshi's karate from JKA shotakan to Egami style shotokai might be an example. Prof. Shuras if you're still out there could you describe a bit of your wah lum experience as a kenpo guy? I later got to see some of the style on tv and while very beautiful how did it translate to practicality?

 

[Karazenpo]

I used to drive by the wah lum temple in orlando often pre-internet and now wished i checked out. I thought it was too good to be true. I think it also had a travel agency on the grounds. Adjacent to it was a biker bar. A B-movie fight scene in the making lol. As to the chinese drift I would guess it also has alot to do with maturity in your art and in age. Less brute force, more evasion, better mechanics and flow. Hawaiian kenpo went further back to find this maybe. Hohan Soken and other old stream okinawans had this already and their students from the modern era had to learn it. I think coming from the streets or being young or those returning from the service brought with them and taught a harder style that may not have been intended. The differences in the interpretations of Funakoshi's karate from JKA shotakan to Egami style shotokai might be an example. Prof. Shuras if you're still out there could you describe a bit of your wah lum experience as a kenpo guy? I later got to see some of the style on tv and while very beautiful how did it translate to practicality?

Hey Monkey, that Wah Lum Temple in Orlando is where Chan Poi went when he left the Boston area. It's too bad you didn't stop in. In Wah Lum, as in tradtional kung fu of that time (I don't know if things have changed since) you didn't learn 'seperate' self defense techniques at all. They were taught through forms and you were expected to extrapolate self defense techniques yourself. You would perform the form then you were asked to show a self defense application from that form. The sets were intricate compared to many karate katas and were of course very flowing. It wasn't too bad for a kenpo/kempo student to make the transition to Wah Lum but much more difficult or virtually impossible for a traditional karate black belt to do it. A very good Okinawan karate black belt tried it but she quit after about two weeks, just to stiff and choppy. I can imagine the difficulty a Japanese stylist would have, like Shotokan! It's funny, when I studied southern Shaolin, although different then kempo karate, I could still see where the kempo came from. When I studied the northern Wah Lum, I could see where the southern styles came from and in turn kempo! I had around a dozen forms but only practice a few to this day. The set called 'Straight Form' reminds me of the 'grandfather system' of Kempo Karate so I teach that one. Some like the 'Leopard Form' was too abstract for me to derive solid self defense from but Staright Form reminded me of something adaptable to Chinese Kempo. There's a beginner form called '16 Hands' which is also pretty adaptable and you can extract some good movement from it. I also teach that as a prerequisite to Straight Form, the opening sequence of the two forms are also similiar. Straight Form in Wah Lum is probably, from what I recall, an intermediate form but in a karate style it would be classified 'advanced' by all means. A lot of 'twisting and turning', for a notherm form, I like it. The full name of the system is Northern Wah Lum Tam Yui Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Tam Tui meaning 'searching leg', I've heard 'springing leg' also. If I recall Tracy's Kenpo had a kung fu form called Tam Tui, I wonder if there is any connection?
All in all, Wah Lum is excellent for conditioning and training the body but difficult to translate to the street if you had no prior experience in a kenpo/kempo type system. Yes, the vast majority of the old seniors in all the Hawaiian derived kenpo evolved it toward the Chinese arts. I don't think the mechcanics are better but it is very, very flowing. If your primary art is hard style kempo/kenpo, like Emperado's Original Method, and you take Wah Lum to cross train, you can make it look good, damn good, but you'll never lose your kempo identity in how you move and hit, it will show up in the Wah Lum but that's not neccessarily a bad thing,lol. Also, I've heard at least one kenpo senior say, his name is G. 'Billy' Vargas who stated he studied under William Chow, that higher levels of kenpo are found in the traditional Chinese kung fu forms. He stated Professor Chow taught him that.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

I think I read that the Tracys got tam tui from their chinatown training. I recall tam tui as a set of ten basic training forms of northern shaolin. I wonder just where Prof. Chow got his kungfu from. Not just stories. I agree with you in the close connection between the mitose's book, parker's first, and trias's my hand is my sword. same stuff. In parker's book (which we have been told was mostly chow's method at the time) I can name the pages that directly correspond with applications from the okinawan pinans/kushanku, passai, and naihanchi. Mitose uses the term namigaeshi the "returning wave" kick as i remember which was supposedly coined by Funakoshi to describe the move to the Japanese. I just don't see the kung fu that chow shows in the demo. If I remember he does a crane posture in the demo at one point. Not the karate kid kind LOL but the combative kind. Non-telegraphic cat stance with the arms out to the sides leaving his centerline open to draw an attack, I'm probably reaching a bit though. I think there was a whole lot of trading and experimenting going on at the okazaki dojo. As always thanks for the input.

 

[Karazenpo]

I think I read that the Tracys got tam tui from their chinatown training. I recall tam tui as a set of ten basic training forms of northern shaolin. I wonder just where Prof. Chow got his kungfu from. Not just stories. I agree with you in the close connection between the mitose's book, parker's first, and trias's my hand is my sword. same stuff. In parker's book (which we have been told was mostly chow's method at the time) I can name the pages that directly correspond with applications from the okinawan pinans/kushanku, passai, and naihanchi. Mitose uses the term namigaeshi the "returning wave" kick as i remember which was supposedly coined by Funakoshi to describe the move to the Japanese. I just don't see the kung fu that chow shows in the demo. If I remember he does a crane posture in the demo at one point. Not the karate kid kind LOL but the combative kind. Non-telegraphic cat stance with the arms out to the sides leaving his centerline open to draw an attack, I'm probably reaching a bit though. I think there was a whole lot of trading and experimenting going on at the okazaki dojo. As always thanks for the input.

Agreed and it does seem like Chow's Kung Fu exposure came later, like in the 60's, doesn't it?

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Exactly, Prof. Shuras. Chow is the only one really that is not openly connected to some lineage other that what has been said about his family connections. For me, where he came up with it I don't know I am just glad he did . It is a shame he never really got the recognition he deserved IMHO. Innovation in MA's is such a touchy thing. I can appreciate all sides though. To round this out with Villari, he took the ball and ran with it. Aside from the business stuff and the stories, he taught what he wanted and others validated it and his abilities. What's the saying? Something like time will promote you or expose you. Well, like you said those who criticized often did the same thing and I doubt anyone would hang around for 30 years or so if he were bluffing it. I made a joke about his DVD's on that thread but regarding the presentation. All things considered he moved fine to me. East Coast Head Stomping. Maybe that isn't in I don't know lol. It was the presentation that got to me: The Ex-vietnam veteran navy seal saying it saved his life, the lady whose daughters were going away to college, a guy whose said he got his teeth knocked but fears no man now etc. The spokesmodel and spandex tops. Its nothing others aren't doing I guess. It just sucks when somebody has it and goes that road. All I remember about Villari kempo was that it was karate forms and kungfu techniques and when I got to I think purple I qualified for a black gi. Bad A$$ I thought Lol!

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Since I am saving my $$ on the Villari Dvd's, hopefully one day the original Karazenpo goshin-jitsu will be available. Any chances?

 

[Karazenpo]

Yes, Monkey, I agree with all you said and the east coast/west coast rivalry reminds me of the Red Sox/Yankees, it's now part of our culture, I guess, lol. Here's something a bunch of us were talking about not too long ago and again, I haven't been affiliated with Gm. Villari for almost 2 1/2 decades and he has schools right in my area so I'm certainly not advertizing for him, just calling it like I see it, anyway...........We used to hear all these 'masters and grandmasters' screaming about Villari back then and even today, all kinds of things....threats, kick'n his a.., but, you know what? Know one ever knocked on his door, not one of his most vehement critics ever showed up at his school when he was on the floor teaching, not one ever approached him at his seminars and/or tournaments or simply on the street or in a parking lot, the opportunities were definitely there, he wasn't hiding in a cave. Everyone knew where he lived in Medfield, Ma. At the beginning, everyone also knew he worked at Polaroid in Waltham, Ma. Now before someone replies it was because of liability and/or police intervention, please remember, back in my day, there were 'dojo wars' going on, we had them, these 'visits' did happen and there was never anything mentioned about getting sued or calling the cops, you just handled things as a man similiar to the way our kempo forefathers did in Hawaii and on the west coast in those early years. Lots of talk about him Monkey but no one talking ever came to back it up. To me, that puts everything into perspective for when two tigers fight, one dies and the other is mortally wounded.......I'm sure this was in the back of their minds because I know, I for one, never take anyone's fighting abilities for granted because when you do, you're just asking to take a fall. As far as Karazenpo on DVD, I will ask Sijo Gascon about this when I see him at the end of January. Respect to all & Happy New Year! Prof. Joe

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Happy New Year everybody out there! I just wanted to make a ping about the possibility of the Karazenpo stuff on video. I thought if others would also it might get something going. Never know right?

when two tigers fight, one dies and the other is mortally wounded

Amen.
I also wanted to applogize for being a knuckle head with semi-profanity. I got my forum rules mixed up.

 

[SenseiKeith]

... As far as Karazenpo on DVD, I will ask Sijo Gascon about this when I see him at the end of January. Respect to all & Happy New Year! Prof. Joe

I know this post is a little old but I do not see a follow up to the question asked about Karazenpo videos. I was wondering if this ever happend or not. If anyone knows please post here.

Thanks,
Keith