Unification of TKd

[terryl965]

What do you believe would happen if everyone went under one unified banner for TKD? What do you believe to be the pro's and con's of a unification? What would happen to all those not affiliated and for unification? I know this is all just opinions and that is all we got but I would find this interesting to see what people thought of this.

 

[puunui]

What do you believe would happen if everyone went under one unified banner for TKD? What do you believe to be the pro's and con's of a unification? What would happen to all those not affiliated and for unification? I know this is all just opinions and that is all we got but I would find this interesting to see what people thought of this.

We are for the most part, under a unified banner for Taekwondo. The pros are that we can gain entrance to and remain in the Olympic Games. Also, students can transfer to other schools and retain their poom/dan rank. Cons are instructors might be required to leave the safety of their dojang and update their materials once in a while, if they wish to continue to be promoted under the unified banner. Some might be unwilling to do that. Also, if you promote using the unified certification, then someone outside your school could promote your student, which you may not want for whatever reason. It is easier for people to leave if they have the unified certification because others are issuing the same certification that you are. Those who choose not to join the unification movement and their students will end up like outsiders looking in, unable to participate in unified certification and competition at the olympic level because of their or their teacher's decision to stay separate.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We are for the most part, under a unified banner for Taekwondo. The pros are that we can gain entrance to and remain in the Olympic Games.

Also, students can transfer to other schools and retain their poom/dan rank. Cons are instructors might be required to leave the safety of their dojang and update their materials once in a while, if they wish to continue to be promoted under the unified banner. Some might be unwilling to do that.

Also, if you promote using the unified certification, then someone outside your school could promote your student, which you may not want for whatever reason. It is easier for people to leave if they have the unified certification because others are issuing the same certification that you are.

Those who choose not to join the unification movement and their students will end up like outsiders looking in, unable to participate in unified certification and competition at the olympic level because of their or their teacher's decision to stay separate.

Pretty much what he said.

Most independents or schools in other orgs generally don't end up as outsiders looking in, however. They generally are doing specifically what they want to do or are part of another organization that meets their needs. Generally, such schools and organizations appeal to a different set of wants and desires.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Most independents or schools in other orgs generally don't end up as outsiders looking in, however. They generally are doing specifically what they want to do or are part of another organization that meets their needs. Generally, such schools and organizations appeal to a different set of wants and desires.Daniel

The ATA's GM LEE Haeng Ung spent his last days trying very hard to get Kukkiwon certification for all ATA members. Even General Choi, wanted unification with Kukki Taekwondo, which I believe was one of the reasons why he chose to endorse Mr. CHANG Ung as the next ITF President.

But over and above those big examples, I have seen so many instances of students of the original independent open their own dojang and wish Kukkiwon certification and access to WTF competition. Many do all sorts of crazy stuff to try and get back in, including paying huge fees to unscrupulous instructors who take their money and then don't give them the certification, or give them fake certificates.

 

[dancingalone]

From my viewpoint, there is little to no benefit. I am not interested in the Olympics or in tournament competition. I do not feel the need to further Korean nationalism or pride. And I am already teaching the things technically I find important, items incidentally which really aren't found comprehensively in any large organization out there right now.

Students interested in either of the first two things will need to go elsewhere than me for them, and I wish everyone else every bit of success and happiness possible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The ATA's GM LEE Haeng Ung spent his last days trying very hard to get Kukkiwon certification for all ATA members. Even General Choi, wanted unification with Kukki Taekwondo, which I believe was one of the reasons why he chose to endorse Mr. CHANG Ung as the next ITF President.

Interesting. From what I have seen, most ITF-ers that I have encountered are pretty happy where they are. The ATA seems to have made a speciality of family and kids and from what I can see, those that want the ATA product are happy (I could be wrong, but that is the impression that I get).

But over and above those big examples, I have seen so many instances of students of the original independent open their own dojang and wish Kukkiwon certification and access to WTF competition. Many do all sorts of crazy stuff to try and get back in, including paying huge fees to unscrupulous instructors who take their money and then don't give them the certification, or give them fake certificates.

Seen that happen sadly.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I have a niece and a nephew in ATA. The type of sparring practiced in ATA is point-based primarily, although some of the adult higher ranks will spar continuously from time to time. I can't see what benefit ATA members would reap from KKW recognition. They already have a thriving sport circuit entirely for their own membership.

 

[puunui]

I am not interested in the Olympics or in tournament competition. I do not feel the need to further Korean nationalism or pride. And I am already teaching the things technically I find important, items incidentally which really aren't found comprehensively in any large organization out there right now.

I was exactly where you are, back when I was in college. I don't know about the furthering Korean pride thing, but I can say that at the time I didn't care about rank, or organizations, but rather I simply focused on my own dream of creating my own all encompassing style that would have the best of everything.

One thing Taekwondo gives me is a connection to a larger unified world, something that is bigger than my own tiny insignificant wants and desires. I truly enjoy the cameraderie of the Taekwondo experience and have made life long friends from its practice. That to me is the biggest thing that I get out of Taekwondo, the relationships that I have made and maintain, all over the world. My spirits get lifted from Taekwondo, and I have seen a higher and better way because of it. My hope in posting on MT is to somehow share the joy that comes from understanding the highest ideals which are embodied in its study.

One thing that these dark times has brought is a focus on everything that people think is bad about Taekwondo. They complain and howl about this or that, and in doing so, bring themselves and their chosen art down. I want to show people what Taekwondo was meant to be and is, if you focus on the good and take things in a more user friendly way. Otherwise you end up hating your art and yourself for being a part of it. That's not a good place to be.

If you wish to take what you feel are the good parts of Taekwondo, then by all means be my guest. But please also take the good feelings that you feel when you are practicing those good parts and remember those as well and be grateful, at least withing your own self, that there were seniors out there who worked hard so you could enjoy the fruits of their labors.

That's all.

 

[puunui]

I have a niece and a nephew in ATA. The type of sparring practiced in ATA is point-based primarily, although some of the adult higher ranks will spar continuously from time to time. I can't see what benefit ATA members would reap from KKW recognition. They already have a thriving sport circuit entirely for their own membership.

Apparently GM LEE Haeng Ung felt differently, in the twilight of his years.

 

[dancingalone]

Apparently GM LEE Haeng Ung felt differently, in the twilight of his years.

It would be interesting to know what his reasoning was. Even at his death, I understand the ATA was already a very mature organization with ample popular tournaments.

 

[dancingalone]

I was exactly where you are, back when I was in college. I don't know about the furthering Korean pride thing, but I can say that at the time I didn't care about rank, or organizations, but rather I simply focused on my own dream of creating my own all encompassing style that would have the best of everything.

One thing Taekwondo gives me is a connection to a larger unified world, something that is bigger than my own tiny insignificant wants and desires. I truly enjoy the cameraderie of the Taekwondo experience and have made life long friends from its practice. That to me is the biggest thing that I get out of Taekwondo, the relationships that I have made and maintain, all over the world. My spirits get lifted from Taekwondo, and I have seen a higher and better way because of it. My hope in posting on MT is to somehow share the joy that comes from understanding the highest ideals which are embodied in its study.

One thing that these dark times has brought is a focus on everything that people think is bad about Taekwondo. They complain and howl about this or that, and in doing so, bring themselves and their chosen art down. I want to show people what Taekwondo was meant to be and is, if you focus on the good and take things in a more user friendly way. Otherwise you end up hating your art and yourself for being a part of it. That's not a good place to be.

If you wish to take what you feel are the good parts of Taekwondo, then by all means be my guest. But please also take the good feelings that you feel when you are practicing those good parts and remember those as well and be grateful, at least withing your own self, that there were seniors out there who worked hard so you could enjoy the fruits of their labors.

That's all.

I have no problems with the general ideas you've written here. Friendship is a good thing and so is appreciating one's teachers.

In this I am simply following the path my own teachers have taught me. Jhoon Rhee has been an independent for a very long time, and from my Okinawan karate perspective, well, we've simply never been organized or standardized to anywhere near the scale that groups like the ITF or KKW have accomplished.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you wish to take what you feel are the good parts of Taekwondo, then by all means be my guest. But please also take the good feelings that you feel when you are practicing those good parts and remember those as well and be grateful, at least withing your own self, that there were seniors out there who worked hard so you could enjoy the fruits of their labors.

That's all.

Great post. I liked it all, but I particularly like the last paragraph.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

The one thing that have never changed for me over all these years is the friendships I have made though TKD. I have never meet an elder that would not simply shake my hand and listen to my question, I have been able to listen, ask and sometime disagree with them and they never looked down on me for it. The one thing I think will hurt if all TKD came under one banner is the freedom to express one individuality with TKD.

 

[puunui]

It would be interesting to know what his reasoning was. Even at his death, I understand the ATA was already a very mature organization with ample popular tournaments.

It wasn't told to me directly like this, but the inference that I got was that GM LEE Haeng Ung had made his millions, but it disturbed him that he and his people were not connected to Kukki Taekwondo, that he was an outsider looking in. So he would go to Korea on a regular basis and share his business ideas with instructors and the Kukkiwon, which I believe at least of it made it into the Kukkiwon Textbook and Kukkiwon Instructor Course. They were working hard to get to the point where assimilation would be possible, but he passed away before that could be completed.

I believe that those who took over the ATA feel they also need to make their millions and therefore have less of any incentive to continue working with the Kukkiwon.

I know that many members of the ATA, or maybe former members at this point, really want to receive Kukkiwon certification and are ready and willing to learn the Kukkiwon poomsae to obtain it. I am working with someone, a former ATA senior guy who is working on bringing in 5000 dan holders into Kukki Taekwondo, in the United States and South America. The new Kukkiwon leadership and all their stuff has sort of put that project on hold though. But believe me, there is great interest in becoming Kukkiwon certified in the ATA or former ATA world.

 

[puunui]

The one thing I think will hurt if all TKD came under one banner is the freedom to express one individuality with TKD.

?

We already have unity under one banner, and no one is suppressing your freedom to express your individuality. Every instructor teaches in their own unique way, even within the same school. The Kukkiwon gives its practitioners the best of both worlds, standardized certification and curriculum as well as the freedom to do what you want. Who can argue with that?

 

[puunui]

In this I am simply following the path my own teachers have taught me. Jhoon Rhee has been an independent for a very long time, and from my Okinawan karate perspective, well, we've simply never been organized or standardized to anywhere near the scale that groups like the ITF or KKW have accomplished.

GM Jhoon Rhee is a very interesting gentleman, I got to know him a little because he would show up to USTU events every once in a while, doing his push ups. But the seniors were a little disappointed with him, at least in the USTU. I know at the WTF and Kukkiwon level he wasn't known as the most cooperative individual. The general consensus is that he is America's version of General Choi, with all that entails. I don't believe GM Rhee has any Kukkiwon dan, and he returned his 9th Dan certificate to GM LEE Won Kuk, feeling he didn't need or want it.

 

[dancingalone]

I know that many members of the ATA, or maybe former members at this point, really want to receive Kukkiwon certification and are ready and willing to learn the Kukkiwon poomsae to obtain it. I am working with someone, a former ATA senior guy who is working on bringing in 5000 dan holders into Kukki Taekwondo, in the United States and South America. The new Kukkiwon leadership and all their stuff has sort of put that project on hold though. But believe me, there is great interest in becoming Kukkiwon certified in the ATA or former ATA world.

What does this gentleman feel he and his students will gain from this? An association with the mother ship? A chance to send someone to the Olympics? What tangible thing will you be providing that he doesn't have already?

No insult implied. I am truly curious.

 

[dancingalone]

GM Jhoon Rhee is a very interesting gentleman, I got to know him a little because he would show up to USTU events every once in a while, doing his push ups. But the seniors were a little disappointed with him, at least in the USTU. I know at the WTF and Kukkiwon level he wasn't known as the most cooperative individual. The general consensus is that he is America's version of General Choi, with all that entails. I don't believe GM Rhee has any Kukkiwon dan, and he returned his 9th Dan certificate to GM LEE Won Kuk, feeling he didn't need or want it.

He is his own man with a huge legacy in American martial arts. With all due respect, his accomplishments can speak for themselves. He doesn't need to 'cooperate' with anyone, and I expect the vast majority of his students don't give a thought about any disappointment Mr. Rhee might have caused his own seniors, nor do I think he himself is losing any sleep over it. It is what it is.

 

[puunui]

What does this gentleman feel he and his students will gain from this? An association with the mother ship? A chance to send someone to the Olympics? What tangible thing will you be providing that he doesn't have already? No insult implied. I am truly curious.

A chance to be connected to something larger than themselves, to be a part of the big picture, to truly belong in the world of Taekwondo, instead of feeling like an outsider looking in, in their own small isolated pond, to have some acknowledgment and recognition from Korea, the mother country of Taekwondo. Those are some of the reasons why non-Kukkiwon practitioners seek out Kukkiwon certification. I've done enough converting to know. At some point, there comes a time when self defense or money or whatever else is not enough, that there is a longing I think for people to feel like they truly belong. I think GM LEE Haeng Ung felt like that, and wanted that for his members.

 

[puunui]

He doesn't need to 'cooperate' with anyone, and I expect the vast majority of his students don't give a thought about any disappointment Mr. Rhee might have caused his own seniors, nor do I think he himself is losing any sleep over it.

Maybe at some point he may change his mind, just like GM LEE Haeng Ung did.