tu kong mu sul

puunui

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I figured it was better to start a new thread.

Thank you for looking.

The local group have a variety of soft forms they claim descends from the Shaolin temple. They are practiced with an emphasis on fluidity like KSW forms likewise are.

There is a definite "kuk sool" feel to the art. Kuk Sool Won is a combination of Hapkido learned by GM SEO In Sun as well as students of GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong and the Southern Praying Mantis learned by GM SU In Hyuk. Hwarangdo is also related due to the fact that Dr. Joo Bang Lee was a student of GM KIM Moo Hong in Seoul. GM SU In Hyuk visited GM Kim's dojang, showed the students some of his southern preying mantis, and a group decided to join, including Dr. Joo Bang Lee. Later, Dr. Lee decided to break off on his own and called his art Hwarangdo. When I lived in California, I lived about two or three blocks from the Kuk Sool Won main headquarters. I had a friend who studied Kuk Sool Won in Berkeley under GM LEE Byung In and he had a friend who studied Hwarangdo at the Downey headquarters. They compared techniques and discovered that everything was substantially the same in Kuk Sool vs. Hwarangdo. The main differences were small ones, such as the Kuk Sool Won people did their hand techniques from a deeper horse stance (like a kung fu person would do) while the Hwarangdo people did theirs from a more upright stance, like a Hapkido person would do. But it was basically the same thing.

Tu Kong Mu Sul looks to be an off short of Kuk Sool Won, down to the lettering on the back of their uniforms.

The book I have is actually pretty intensive, and it shows what look to be actual notes taken from what I think was the foundation for the creation of the style.

Are you interested in studying Tu Kong Mu Sul, or are you interested in finding out more because there is a dojang nearby?
 

dancingalone

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There is a definite "kuk sool" feel to the art. Kuk Sool Won is a combination of Hapkido learned by GM SEO In Sun as well as students of GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong and the Southern Praying Mantis learned by GM SU In Hyuk. Hwarangdo is also related due to the fact that Dr. Joo Bang Lee was a student of GM KIM Moo Hong in Seoul. GM SU In Hyuk visited GM Kim's dojang, showed the students some of his southern preying mantis, and a group decided to join, including Dr. Joo Bang Lee. Later, Dr. Lee decided to break off on his own and called his art Hwarangdo. When I lived in California, I lived about two or three blocks from the Kuk Sool Won main headquarters. I had a friend who studied Kuk Sool Won in Berkeley under GM LEE Byung In and he had a friend who studied Hwarangdo at the Downey headquarters. They compared techniques and discovered that everything was substantially the same in Kuk Sool vs. Hwarangdo. The main differences were small ones, such as the Kuk Sool Won people did their hand techniques from a deeper horse stance (like a kung fu person would do) while the Hwarangdo people did theirs from a more upright stance, like a Hapkido person would do. But it was basically the same thing.

Tu Kong Mu Sul looks to be an off short of Kuk Sool Won, down to the lettering on the back of their uniforms.

The book I have is actually pretty intensive, and it shows what look to be actual notes taken from what I think was the foundation for the creation of the style.

That's rather interesting stuff. I had a feeling the Tukong Musul material I've seen locally looked rather more flowery than I would have thought a modern military system would be. Still, if it descends in part from KSW I have nothing bad to say about it. Years ago I took lessons at Master Lee's local dojang when my wife was away for an extended period of time and when I had few students of my own. I enjoyed my brief time in KSW.

Are you interested in studying Tu Kong Mu Sul, or are you interested in finding out more because there is a dojang nearby?

Not so much study. I'm always interested in other martial arts systems particularly those that have joint locks. I enjoy viewing variations of techniques that I know myself and occasionally I pick up something useful for permanent addition into my own practice.
 
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puunui

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That's rather interesting stuff. I had a feeling the Tukong Musul material I've seen locally looked rather more flowery than I would have thought a modern military system would be. Still, if it descends in part from KSW I have nothing bad to say about it.

That's just my sense or feeling, that it is somehow related to Kuk Sool Won. You might be in a better position to confirm that, given the fact that you actually studied Kuk Sool Won and have a Tu Kong Mu Sul dojang nearby.


Years ago I took lessons at Master Lee's local dojang when my wife was away for an extended period of time and when I had few students of my own. I enjoyed my brief time in KSW.

GM Lee is a very nice man, always smiling, always happy. He was famous for his blindfolded jump back kick breaking demonstrations and I want to say I used to see him demonstrate the single sword form. I'm glad that your experience with kuk sool was positive. If I didn't study hapkido, I probably would have studied kuk sool won, during my time in the bay area. All of the leading practitioners were there at the time I was there, with schools ringing the bay. But then again, if it weren't for hapkido, I would have ended up going to school on the east coast.


Not so much study. I'm always interested in other martial arts systems particularly those that have joint locks. I enjoy viewing variations of techniques that I know myself and occasionally I pick up something useful for permanent addition into my own practice.

Do you sense a difference between joint locking principles in korean arts vs. japanese arts? If so, what are the differences? I know I am asking for a generalization.
 

RobinTKD

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So what is the difference between Kuk Sool Won and Kukkiwon Taekwondo? Was it not part of the original Kwans that merged into the KTA?

Also Dancingalone, your inbox is full and I can't send you a PM.
 

Josh Oakley

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So what is the difference between Kuk Sool Won and Kukkiwon Taekwondo? Was it not part of the original Kwans that merged into the KTA?

Also Dancingalone, your inbox is full and I can't send you a PM.

Lower stances and a straight sword? Honestly I'm not that sure myself.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk
 

dancingalone

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Do you sense a difference between joint locking principles in korean arts vs. japanese arts? If so, what are the differences? I know I am asking for a generalization.

Keep in mind that the bulk of my experience is in 'modern' aikido rather than jujutsu or Daito-ryu aikijutsu or even 'old' aikido...

I don't believe there is a huge difference between the two approaches. On the surface the core ideas such as yielding and circular movement are the same. Even the discussions about ki and such blend together well.

My main observation from KSW and hapkido is that they're more direct and joint locks are trained to produce pain and damage foremost. Many of aikido's variations are practiced in such a fashion as to produce a big, loopy unbalancing of uke instead, intentionally so to hurt Uke less or (ideally to some) not at all. Of course, a competent aikido-ka will know how to truncate his circles or spiral movements to likewise be as destructive as his hapkido cousin can be, but in general the daily practice is much 'nicer'.

One difference I did observe from KSW is during some of the beginner wrist escape techniques (which are really preludes for more indepth study later) I was taught to tense my wrist first before proceeding to complete the technique. This isn't something usually taught to beginners in my brand of aikido.

Also, I've watched a hapkido 3rd dan test once. During the exam, the candidate performed a lot of low leg kicks and sweeps as he went through his repertoire of joint locks. The low line attacks were integrated very well and made his technique quicker, cleaner, and noticeably more effective. Some of the sequences he performed looked a lot like the higher level material I learned through Okinawan karate. This type of atemi integration is not commonly seen anymore in aikido, although it apparently was a matter of course at one point.

Other than that, perhaps the use of the ki finger is more universal in Korean systems though I think it is common enough in Japanese systems as well. And maybe the aikido I study likes the cutting/rolling through motion to attack the joints more so than the Korean examples I've been exposed to. As you alluded to, it's hard to generalize too much since there is lot of variation in both Japanese and Korean joint locking styles, and I'm sure it's quite possible to find someone in another system that does things more closely to yourself than perhaps another practitioner in your own same nominal system.

I have a lot of respect for good hapkido. Good hapkido is as 'internal' of a system as any other out there.
 

dancingalone

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So what is the difference between Kuk Sool Won and Kukkiwon Taekwondo? Was it not part of the original Kwans that merged into the KTA?

Also Dancingalone, your inbox is full and I can't send you a PM.


KSW doesn't really fall into the TKD family tree and thus wouldn't have been part of the KTA unification efforts. It's more of a hapkido offshoot/blending.

I'll clean out my box tomorrow and I'll PM you when done.
 

oftheherd1

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Keep in mind that the bulk of my experience is in 'modern' aikido rather than jujutsu or Daito-ryu aikijutsu or even 'old' aikido...

I don't believe there is a huge difference between the two approaches. On the surface the core ideas such as yielding and circular movement are the same. Even the discussions about ki and such blend together well.

My main observation from KSW and hapkido is that they're more direct and joint locks are trained to produce pain and damage foremost. Many of aikido's variations are practiced in such a fashion as to produce a big, loopy unbalancing of uke instead, intentionally so to hurt Uke less or (ideally to some) not at all. Of course, a competent aikido-ka will know how to truncate his circles or spiral movements to likewise be as destructive as his hapkido cousin can be, but in general the daily practice is much 'nicer'.

One difference I did observe from KSW is during some of the beginner wrist escape techniques (which are really preludes for more indepth study later) I was taught to tense my wrist first before proceeding to complete the technique. This isn't something usually taught to beginners in my brand of aikido.

Also, I've watched a hapkido 3rd dan test once. During the exam, the candidate performed a lot of low leg kicks and sweeps as he went through his repertoire of joint locks. The low line attacks were integrated very well and made his technique quicker, cleaner, and noticeably more effective. Some of the sequences he performed looked a lot like the higher level material I learned through Okinawan karate. This type of atemi integration is not commonly seen anymore in aikido, although it apparently was a matter of course at one point.

Other than that, perhaps the use of the ki finger is more universal in Korean systems though I think it is common enough in Japanese systems as well. And maybe the aikido I study likes the cutting/rolling through motion to attack the joints more so than the Korean examples I've been exposed to. As you alluded to, it's hard to generalize too much since there is lot of variation in both Japanese and Korean joint locking styles, and I'm sure it's quite possible to find someone in another system that does things more closely to yourself than perhaps another practitioner in your own same nominal system.

I have a lot of respect for good hapkido. Good hapkido is as 'internal' of a system as any other out there.

Your description of the differences between Aikido and Hapkido and Kook Sul Won match what I have observed. I like to say Aikido seems to want to deflect people and throw a lot, until the attacker just gets tired and leaves. The attacker may be hurt by some of the techniques, but that isn't the primary goal. In Hapkido, we are more likely to react with the idea we didn't want to do this to begin with (fight), and we don't want to do it again. Producing pain or damage is more a primary goal for that reason, to prevent the attacker from wanting or being able to continue an attack. Granted that is a big generalization.

I have a co-worker who is a former Aikido student. We sometimes share ideas. We seem to have a lot of techniques in common, and many of his are quite capable of causing pain or damage. However, his first inclination would be something that simply avoids the attack. I was wondering if that had something to do with what you described as the 'old' and 'new' Aikido?

In the Hapkido I studied, we were also taught to tense the wrist by opening the hand in a way to do so. It helps loosen the grip of the attacker. And yes, the early techniques are effective and probably were useful at one time to free the sword hand, but are also good at teaching some basics, including working in close, and moving in to an attack.
 
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puunui

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So what is the difference between Kuk Sool Won and Kukkiwon Taekwondo? Was it not part of the original Kwans that merged into the KTA?

You are thinking of the Kang Duk Won. Kuk Sool Won is a combination of Hapkido and Southern Preying Mantis.
 

dancingalone

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Your description of the differences between Aikido and Hapkido and Kook Sul Won match what I have observed. I like to say Aikido seems to want to deflect people and throw a lot, until the attacker just gets tired and leaves. The attacker may be hurt by some of the techniques, but that isn't the primary goal. In Hapkido, we are more likely to react with the idea we didn't want to do this to begin with (fight), and we don't want to do it again. Producing pain or damage is more a primary goal for that reason, to prevent the attacker from wanting or being able to continue an attack. Granted that is a big generalization.

Indeed for the most part. We do train to end hostilities quickly however - obviously you don't want to let an attacker attack again and again.

I have a co-worker who is a former Aikido student. We sometimes share ideas. We seem to have a lot of techniques in common, and many of his are quite capable of causing pain or damage. However, his first inclination would be something that simply avoids the attack. I was wondering if that had something to do with what you described as the 'old' and 'new' Aikido?

If you read accounts of what and how OSensei taught his early students, it seems like the practice was very much harder in nature - more brutal, more reliant on pain compliance. Aikido hadn't evolved yet to the more serene art it frequently is today. This makes sense in light of OSensei's training background.
 
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puunui

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If you read accounts of what and how OSensei taught his early students, it seems like the practice was very much harder in nature - more brutal, more reliant on pain compliance. Aikido hadn't evolved yet to the more serene art it frequently is today. This makes sense in light of OSensei's training background.

And yet his techniques were "prettier" than his teacher's, for whatever reason.
 

dancingalone

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And yet his techniques were "prettier" than his teacher's, for whatever reason.

I wouldn't know or am unqualified to judge. There was a time that I was fixated on Daito-ryu and I bought the Kondo Sensei tapes and I even made plans to try to train with one of the study groups in the US. I didn't think Daito-ryu looked plain or inelegant.
 
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puunui

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I wouldn't know or am unqualified to judge. There was a time that I was fixated on Daito-ryu and I bought the Kondo Sensei tapes and I even made plans to try to train with one of the study groups in the US. I didn't think Daito-ryu looked plain or inelegant.

I'm still fixated on Daito Ryu. :) I read that comment in a book interviewing students of Takeda Sensei. I think it was Hisa Sensei who said that. Incidentally, there is a photo taken at Hisa Sensei's dojo at the Asahi Newspaper company with GM CHOI Yong Sul and Takeda Sensei together. You can see clearly both their faces. And GM Choi's face is unmistakable. There was a photo on GM Mike Wollmershauser's webpage with GM Choi and you can see the exact same jut of the chin, the cheekbone outline and eyes, even though the photos were taken at least 40 years apart.
 
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