How do you 'hold in' inhales and exhales? If you hold them in you aren't doing them!! Does it mean you have to hold your breath for a certain amount of time? If so, why?
Traditional Bajiquan martial art
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How do you 'hold in' inhales and exhales? If you hold them in you aren't doing them!! Does it mean you have to hold your breath for a certain amount of time? If so, why?
Not hold on the breath, but hold on the posture for 8 inhales and 8 exhales. The breathing is still in the normal speed. The Gong Li system uses this method too.
GodSpearCQB
White Belt
The interpretation of Grandmasters Liu's curriculum as needing to be learned in specific order has been translated as the only solid path by many of my colleagues. This however, does not make it a correct interpretation. There are others, including one from Liu himself. My Master, has said repeatedly that the reason these arts exist in our system is not to force one to learn them all, but rather to use the arts as hones to sharpen the different warriors needs. A true trainer of warriors talents lies in ascertaining the weakness and strengths of the candidate, and also the purpose of the candidate. I shall unpack this idea. This will perhaps illuminate the genius of GM Liu, and the subsequent high level of understanding his predecessors must attain to disseminate at the same level or preferably even higher. After all if the art does not EVOLVE it DEVOLVES there is no static in such things nothing is ever exactly the same as some purists would have you believe. First off, Liu had a sang that rings true and could even be extended, "All Northern Chinese Martial Arts are children of the same mother" and by extension, being of fighting Norman descent I would argue, All human combatives are descendant of the same father/ mother, but that assertion is a topic for another time. Liu was the product of many fathers of battle, most notably GGM LI, GGM GONG GGM DING, and General Zhang. each of these men specialized in teaching warriors. Liu used the subsequent arts mentioned above to fit the individuals needs. These arts are tools to hone the warrior not at all an absolute curriculum. If one were to learn all the arts and all the material taught under the system, (which not all were ever taught by Liu, I.E. the 6 substyles of Mantis disseminated by Su Y Chang, yet included in the curriculum) one would not have time to make war or to protect dignitaries, one would only be a scholar, an academic, and unless extremely talented likely not good at any of them. On the contrary, when teaching operators you must fashion a cure for weakness and an augmentation for strength from these wonderful styles. I for one came out of a northern longfist and Hung Fut background, and began Northern Mantis and Baji Quan immediately. My master having been very close to Liu for 8 years straight 7 days a week arriving at wake up and making him his last tea for bed learned the value of diagnosing a warriors needs. He subsequently honed me according to this amazing talent. Instead of going through Ba Bu Mantis first, which was standard, I was thrust into seven star and closed door mantis, three days a week, baji/pigua three days a week and spear and sword one day a week (Direct instruction). The mantis was to capitalize on my speed and small frame and ruthlessness, and the Baji was used to put a period at the end of my sentences. After several years it shifted to Mei Hua for fluidity and Bagua for mobility and accuracy. I learned Ba Bu and other mantis quite easily along the way having already conquered seven star. Being a Lifer, I had Time to dabble in Tai Ji especially Chens along the way, but my next prescription by my master was Liu He Mantis. This art he felt would place the finishing touches on my natural ability, and he rarely ever taught it because most could not make it work as a combative art due to its nature. It just so happened to fit my movements and became a capstone for me as an individual although there never really is a capstone. Now I have trained several disciples, and many professionals both LEO and MIL, they do not have the luxury of the life described above or the one my master or GM Liu lived. Therefore, I assess their knowledge through rapport building and providing basic movement training, within a short time I begin individual prescription of training. Using as little of each art as possible, I tailor the training using basics from any of the Wutang arts that I feel represent the best exercise for the needs of the student based on Lethal, Non lethal subduing or protecting, or health needs honed to the amount of intelligence, ability, or time the student presents as a canvas, or a work of art that simply needs tweaked. I hope this dissertation helps explain the actual intention of GM Liu's curriculum instead of being a pigeon holed purist perspective which would produce nothing but a vast wasteland of dancers, not combatants, it was a vast library of tools to sharpen a myriad of warriors with a myriad of intentions A true display of the genius of the Chinese aristocratic and educated mind.
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Sorry, I found this lengthy post a little confusing appearing without context. I see you are new to Martialtalk. Welcome! To start, perhaps you could give us a little background? For example, in the post above, are you talking about Grandmaster Liu Yun Qiao?
GodSpearCQB
White Belt
Not a problem, I was reading the above continuing conversation in this thread that was referencing a codified entry into Baji under our lineage that required a step by step or progressive approach. Yes my Lineage is Grandmaster Liu Yun Qiao. I was describing how the myriad of styles in Wu Tang are used to help an individuals performance not as a rule book, rather as a sharpening stone. Thanks for the welcome, I stay away from most social media and prefer to post proofs, but I found this forum the other day and found it mentally stimulating.
I have read a book that Adam Hsu published few years ago. It was a collection of letters between GM Liu Yun Qiao and Adam Hsu while Adam was teaching in US.
In that book, it states that in Wu Tang, you may learn Baji, long fist, praying mantis, ..., but after you have left Wu Tang, you are allowed to teach your students long fist, praying mantis, but not allowed to teach your students Baji.
In that book, it clearly stated:
Liu Yun Qiao: Are you teaching Baji in US?
Adam Hsu: I'm teaching long fist, praying mantis right now. I'm not teaching Baji in US.
IMO, Wu Tang has very closed mind. How can one promote Baji through the world with this kind of conservative attitude.
The more that I read about that book, the more that I feel sad about the CMA future.
Many years ago, one of my long fist brothers went to Wu Tang and watched the class. He stole the little Baji form by watching (I can steal a form by watching too). He then taught to a group of old people in the park as exercise for health. His action made Wu Tang people mad big time.
The way that my long fist brother think was, "If Wu Tang treats Baji as secret. I will steal Wu Tang's secret, and spread around as old people's exercise." I love my long fist brother's action.
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GodSpearCQB
White Belt
This rule remained in effect until the death of GM Liu. Regardless My Master followed Lil for 8 years 7 days a week with only one profession, teaching martial arts for Liu assisting with secret service, and Taiwan special operations. Indeed my generation (age group) 50 + was the first of westerners to learn Baji that were not R.O.C.
Thanks for confirm the fact. It just make no sense to me.
GM Liu can teach Baji to his students. But as long as Liu is still alive, none of his students is allowed to teach Baji to their students.
What will happen if GM Liu outlive all his students (of course this is impossible)? Will Baji die during his generation?
GodSpearCQB
White Belt
Well I think the animus was direct toward the CCP. the vetting of his disciples as well as Su's, Dai's and my masters was rigorous both in Taiwan, Venezuela, and here in the states. Make no mistake Baji did get disseminated but only to individuals that were closed door disciples. Adam Hsu was not a fan of closed door disciples and only took them at one large ceremony after Liu stopped receiving them to get them into the system. In the door is in the door regardless of what country you are in.
On the mainland the only remaining Baji was from Li Shu Wens early teaching years which was very different then the way he taught GM Liu. Much more rigid and not as fluid or as fast. It is said that Li could hit five strikes before setting his foot down from one movement when he was teaching Liu in his later years.
On the mainland the only remaining Baji was from Li Shu Wens early teaching years which was very different then the way he taught GM Liu. Much more rigid and not as fluid or as fast. It is said that Li could hit five strikes before setting his foot down from one movement when he was teaching Liu in his later years.
It's not my business. But since I was there during the right place and at the right time, I have to speak on this.
When Liu was in Beijing (during the 1st ęµå Ji Nan Traditional CMA tournament), I went to the hotel to meet Liu. Adam, Su, and many other Liu's students was there. I clearly remembered what Liu said to all his students, "After I have passed away, Wu Tang will be under Adam's charge."
GodSpearCQB
White Belt
I am not sure what happened in Taiwan after they all left for USA, I do know know that Johnson Lin is current chairman. I have heard that the group of upper students went their separate ways and other than reunions run separately. It always seems to happen in great organizations once the Head is lost. I do know many of them did not want the job of trying to keep it all together after a time. Thus we are all on friendly terms more or less, but have totally different branches all dedicated to the memory of GM Liu but only loyal to our individual sub divisions. My Master was given permission by GM Liu to start Wu tang center of Martial Arts Ohio back in 1980. I have seen this occur in other styles as well, when the boss dies the students all split. It is sad, but I guess the old adage too many cooks in the kitchen applies. Thank you sharing such a treasured experience. It must have been something to be in such a wonderful place at a wonderful time
Wang laoshi was a disciple of Chang Dong Sheng; I daresay he could (should?) write a book on this and similar times.
GodSpearCQB
White Belt
I would be in line to read. Thanks for the heads up and I am honored to have corresponded with him.
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