Tony Jaa's authenticity/experience

[Ric Flair]

I've always wondered, has Tony Jaa ever truly applied his skills in the streets while growing up??? Let alone has he been in enough Muay Thai ring fights???

Anyone have any videos or anything of living proof???

Or is TOny Jaa just another good acrobat and actor????????

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I think Damian's probably best fit to answer this question. All I know is what's posted around the net, which seems to change almost every time I look at it. I think Damian's actually worked with the guy.

Either way, he still makes good movies.

 

[Damian Mavis]

No he has no ring fight experience. He's a gymnast and martial artist and actor. His reflexes were very sharp though, when we were practicing I threw my kick too fast and he panicked and shielded instead of the routine we were supposed to do. He probably has alot of yahoos throwing kicks too hard at him when practicing the choreography so he stays sharp heh.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

 

[Ric Flair]

Say Damian, that kind of confuses me. I thought a person with Muay Thai experience has to have at least SOME ring experience...... did Tony Jaa spar and have underground gym matches during the early days of his training?

 

[Damian Mavis]

You mean in Thailand right? There's thousands of muay thai practitioners in North America with absolutely no ring experience heh. Here in Thailand most people that do muay thai do it because it's their job... so ya they all have ring experience. But even Thailand has some people that just train and never fight. In Tony Jaas case I have no idea why he never fought.... maybe he's got enough money that he didnt have to... maybe he was a pro gymnast at one time and just did muay thai as an activity. Here only the poor fight. It's not a respectable job, people know that if you're fighting it's because you come from a dirt poor family. If you're a champion than it's respectable, but normal fighters are kind of like race horses. Foreigners of course are the exception, we are always doing wierd things so fighting is just one of many.

No idea if he's sparred. Probably. But here they spar very light, but usually don't wear shin pads.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

 

[Ric Flair]

Wow. I just had some information given to me by a very respectable source. Apparently Tony Jaa studied Muay Thai under his father. And this particular Muay Thai is not the sport or moderated version of Muay Thai. Tony Jaa was trained in the "Combat version" of Muay Thai.

Is this true?

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Wow. I just had some information given to me by a very respectable source. Apparently Tony Jaa studied Muay Thai under his father. And this particular Muay Thai is not the sport or moderated version of Muay Thai. Tony Jaa was trained in the "Combat version" of Muay Thai.

Is this true?

Where's Black Diamond Cobra, he can answer this whole thing. I am conducting a historical inquiry into the development and various stages of Siamese/Thai martial arts. What I have found is that most of the information regarding Muay Thai is completely misrepresented, for reasons I'll not get into.

"Combat Muay Thai" is Krabi Krabong, insofar as I can tell. The Thai army was pretty modernized under King Rama II, and I'm guessing that actual combat use of Krabi Krabong began to dissolve at that point. Even as far back as Naresuan's campaigns, the Siamese were utilizing muskets and canons from the Portugese.

Now, when people talk about old Thai Boxing, there is something that is unclear. I can't tell if people are talking about the unarmed techniques used in association with Krabi Krabong (hand to hand techniques incorporated into armed combat for disarmament, etc.) or what is now being termed Muay Kaat Chueak (something like "boxing with cotton wraps"), which was prevalent in the late 19th, early 20th century up until, what, about 1930.

My inquiry is limited to books, at this point. I have never practiced Krabi Krabong, but I'm going to nab a teacher's visa after law school and spend a couple years immersing myself in the culture, examining historical records and practicing Krabi Krabong. Black Diamond Cobra seems to have done a fair bit of that already, which is why I mentioned him.

So, I guess the short answer is that it's unlikely. You'd really have to define "combat Muay Thai" before you could go further with this. There are a lot of boxing camps now touting Muay Thai Boran. This brings us to the part where I make a bunch of assumptions. Muay Boran seems kind of like Jaa's movie gimmick. My understanding--pre-idolization of Jaa--was that he is primarily a gymnast with experience in TKD, and a limited experience practicing Muay Thai.

He still makes cool movies, though.

 

[Ric Flair]

Where's Black Diamond Cobra, he can answer this whole thing. I am conducting a historical inquiry into the development and various stages of Siamese/Thai martial arts. What I have found is that most of the information regarding Muay Thai is completely misrepresented, for reasons I'll not get into.

"Combat Muay Thai" is Krabi Krabong, insofar as I can tell. The Thai army was pretty modernized under King Rama II, and I'm guessing that actual combat use of Krabi Krabong began to dissolve at that point. Even as far back as Naresuan's campaigns, the Siamese were utilizing muskets and canons from the Portugese.

Now, when people talk about old Thai Boxing, there is something that is unclear. I can't tell if people are talking about the unarmed techniques used in association with Krabi Krabong (hand to hand techniques incorporated into armed combat for disarmament, etc.) or what is now being termed Muay Kaat Chueak (something like "boxing with cotton wraps"), which was prevalent in the late 19th, early 20th century up until, what, about 1930.

My inquiry is limited to books, at this point. I have never practiced Krabi Krabong, but I'm going to nab a teacher's visa after law school and spend a couple years immersing myself in the culture, examining historical records and practicing Krabi Krabong. Black Diamond Cobra seems to have done a fair bit of that already, which is why I mentioned him.

So, I guess the short answer is that it's unlikely. You'd really have to define "combat Muay Thai" before you could go further with this. There are a lot of boxing camps now touting Muay Thai Boran. This brings us to the part where I make a bunch of assumptions. Muay Boran seems kind of like Jaa's movie gimmick. My understanding--pre-idolization of Jaa--was that he is primarily a gymnast with experience in TKD, and a limited experience practicing Muay Thai.

He still makes cool movies, though.

Hey Adrenaline, I also heard original Muay Thai had weapons like the bamboo sticks (kinda like Arnis?) and swords. What do you think?

 

[Manji]

And what does he mean by the other sides of Muay Thai that most people don't really know about? The Muay Thai most people are familiar with is considered a sport and not a martial art, and has only been around since 1930. It is actually a watered-down version of a more vigorous and lethal form of the ancient martial art called Muay Boran, which comes from an even older version of Pahuyuth (systems of Thai martial arts) called Ling Lom "air monkey" that has its foundations in Krabi-Krabong. What's interesting about all of this is that although the ancient forms of Thai's Pahuyuth are steeped in Buddhist notions, the Ling-Lom aspect of Muay Boran has its foundations in the Hindu monkey god Hanuman, where traditional Muay Boran fights were actually dances to honor the story "The Legend of Ramayana" and the fights between the various deities involved, which of course includes the hero Hanuman. Similar to Chinese kung fu, where each technique of a form has a specific name, many of the maneuvers in Muay Boran forms have names based on the fighting postures of the gods from "Ramayana" aka "The Prince of Light."

Jaa started training in Muay Thai at age 15, trekking through the jungles from his home in Surin, near the northeastern Thai-Cambodian border, to a village called Maha Sarakham where he'd practice other kinds of martial arts and various martial arts weapons for eight hours a day under former Thai action movie hero Phanna Rithikari. However, his gymnastic skills started at an earlier age. As a kid working in his father's rice paddies, he would jump up onto his pet elephants and somersault into the river. As time went by, his teacher Phanna would have Jaa work on films doing menial labor, like being the water boy, setting up the dolly and lights, giving him the chance to see how things were done on set. Such work just re-emphasized to Jaa that he wanted to be a film star like his mentor Phanna. In fact, ONG BAK was born on the set of Jaa's first gig, being Robin Shou's stunt double on MORTAL KOMBAT: ANNIHILATION (1997).

http://www.tonyjaa.org/kungfumag0205.shtml

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

And what does he mean by the other sides of Muay Thai that most people don't really know about? The Muay Thai most people are familiar with is considered a sport and not a martial art, and has only been around since 1930. It is actually a watered-down version of a more vigorous and lethal form of the ancient martial art called Muay Boran, which comes from an even older version of Pahuyuth (systems of Thai martial arts) called Ling Lom "air monkey" that has its foundations in Krabi-Krabong. What's interesting about all of this is that although the ancient forms of Thai's Pahuyuth are steeped in Buddhist notions, the Ling-Lom aspect of Muay Boran has its foundations in the Hindu monkey god Hanuman, where traditional Muay Boran fights were actually dances to honor the story "The Legend of Ramayana" and the fights between the various deities involved, which of course includes the hero Hanuman. Similar to Chinese kung fu, where each technique of a form has a specific name, many of the maneuvers in Muay Boran forms have names based on the fighting postures of the gods from "Ramayana" aka "The Prince of Light."

Jaa started training in Muay Thai at age 15, trekking through the jungles from his home in Surin, near the northeastern Thai-Cambodian border, to a village called Maha Sarakham where he'd practice other kinds of martial arts and various martial arts weapons for eight hours a day under former Thai action movie hero Phanna Rithikari. However, his gymnastic skills started at an earlier age. As a kid working in his father's rice paddies, he would jump up onto his pet elephants and somersault into the river. As time went by, his teacher Phanna would have Jaa work on films doing menial labor, like being the water boy, setting up the dolly and lights, giving him the chance to see how things were done on set. Such work just re-emphasized to Jaa that he wanted to be a film star like his mentor Phanna. In fact, ONG BAK was born on the set of Jaa's first gig, being Robin Shou's stunt double on MORTAL KOMBAT: ANNIHILATION (1997).

[URL="http://www.tonyjaa.org/kungfumag0205.shtml"]http://www.tonyjaa.org/kungfumag0205.shtml[/URL]

Yes, well, thank you for regurgitating something you know nothing about. I'm so sick of hearing about Muay Thai Boran and Muay Kaat Chueak from people that read some crap on the internet and think they are experts. The hero of the Ramayana is not Hanuman, it's Rama. Hanuman is the Monkey warrior that assists Rama and his brother in saving Sita, his fiancé, who was stolen away from Rama by Ravana. It's not a Buddhist text, it's a Hindu text. The Siamese royalty surrounded themselves by Brahmin clergy, despite being collectively Buddhist, first Mahayana and then Theravada. The Ramayana was adopted by Thong-Duang, aka King Yotfa, aka King Rama I, who overthrew General Taksin during the Thonburi period, moving the capital across the river to Bangkok, thus beginning the Chakri dynasty. King Rama, looking to return the monarchy to traditional Siamese rule (Taksin was primarily Chinese--but so was Thong-Duang, ironically) re-wrote the Ramayana ("Ramakian") from a Siamese perspective, placing himself as the hero, Rama.

Go back and look at what I wrote. It stands to reason that there would be quite a difference between Krabi Krabong unarmed techniques--what I would call Muay Thai Boran--and the Muay Kaat Chueak, the style of boxing matches held in the 17-1800s until the 1930's. One prevalent in the 15th/16th/17th centuries, the other prevalent in the 18th-19th and early 20th centuries. Thus, it stands to reason that Muay Kaat Chueak and Muay Thai Boran are not the same thing. The more I research Muay Thai Boran, the more it appears to be a fairytale that actually existed. Everyone wants to romanticize it and trump it up.

I don't really know about Jaa, nor do I particularly care, anymore. Ong Bak was a cool movie that was done using a lot of gymnastics. It had a Thai martial arts THEME.

On the bamboo thing, it stands to reason that bamboo was used in both training and warfare. I think it's still used today to train in Krabi Krabong. The people in southeast asia and the Chaophraya basin were working metal about as early as anyone else, so they would probably have used metal weapons in warfare.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Hey Adrenaline, I also heard original Muay Thai had weapons like the bamboo sticks (kinda like Arnis?) and swords. What do you think?

Google the "Buddhai Sawan," that should give you a good overview. A lot of what's being presented as Thai history should be taken with a grain of salt, but it's a good read, nevertheless, and the Buddhai Sawan, as far as I can tell, is one of the most reputable Krabi Krabong schools around.

 

[Kenpo_man]

Yes, well, thank you for regurgitating something you know nothing about. I'm so sick of hearing about Muay Thai Boran and Muay Kaat Chueak from people that read some crap on the internet and think they are experts. The hero of the Ramayana is not Hanuman, it's Rama. Hanuman is the Monkey warrior that assists Rama and his brother in saving Sita, his fiancé, who was stolen away from Rama by Ravana. It's not a Buddhist text, it's a Hindu text. The Siamese royalty surrounded themselves by Brahmin clergy, despite being collectively Buddhist, first Mahayana and then Theravada. The Ramayana was adopted by Thong-Duang, aka King Yotfa, aka King Rama I, who overthrew General Taksin during the Thonburi period, moving the capital across the river to Bangkok, thus beginning the Chakri dynasty. King Rama, looking to return the monarchy to traditional Siamese rule (Taksin was primarily Chinese--but so was Thong-Duang, ironically) re-wrote the Ramayana ("Ramakian") from a Siamese perspective, placing himself as the hero, Rama.

Go back and look at what I wrote. It stands to reason that there would be quite a difference between Krabi Krabong unarmed techniques--what I would call Muay Thai Boran--and the Muay Kaat Chueak, the style of boxing matches held in the 17-1800s until the 1930's. One prevalent in the 15th/16th/17th centuries, the other prevalent in the 18th-19th and early 20th centuries. Thus, it stands to reason that Muay Kaat Chueak and Muay Thai Boran are not the same thing. The more I research Muay Thai Boran, the more it appears to be a fairytale that actually existed. Everyone wants to romanticize it and trump it up.

:flame:HAHAHAHAHA. Well put.

 

[Monkeyfist]

I've always wondered, has Tony Jaa ever truly applied his skills in the streets while growing up??? Let alone has he been in enough Muay Thai ring fights???

Anyone have any videos or anything of living proof???

Or is TOny Jaa just another good acrobat and actor????????

Who cares? If you like his movies, watch them. If not, go with the other kenpo guys who play patty cake in the dojo, but could never use their techniques against an opponent who isn't standing perfectly still.

 

[Sagat]

Who cares? If you like his movies, watch them. If not, go with the other kenpo guys who play patty cake in the dojo, but could never use their techniques against an opponent who isn't standing perfectly still.

Ouch, take that Kenpo. Having never trained in Kenpo I can't comment, but I did watch Kenpo Man's fight and he did quite well, plus Chuck Lidell trained [maybe still does I'm not sure] in Kenpo so it can't be all bad. I'm thiinking that a guy with a username like 'Monkeyfist' would be more inclined to be practicing 'Patty cake' in a dojo:asian:

 

[MuayThaiGuy]

Ohhhhhh bbuuurrrrnnnnneeeddd. But face it, he is in movies... not Pride or UFC. If he was an excellent fighter he'd be in the big fights and so far I haven't seen him anywhere but the big screen. He is talented nonetheless. You can tell he has good technique in Muay Thai and an actor can't just learn that **** for a movie. Now he's no Robert De Niro either but you have to admit he's probably one of the only people in the world that can do and aerial through two panes of glass or jump through a ring of barbed wire head AND feet first. I am sure he has a good deal of training under his belt too, just like Jackie Chan. Neither are amazing fighters or actors but they do both well enough to be in movies!

 

[mantis]

well he said he started learning Muay Thai to show the world traditional thai arts through movies just like bruce lee did... he never claimed anything else but this.

 

[wee_blondie]

All I can say is that I love his movies but that's all they are - MOVIES. If you want to learn Muay Thai, find yourself a good Kru and practice. If you want to be entertained, watch a movie!

Simple, end of.

:flame:

 

[mantis]

All I can say is that I love his movies but that's all they are - MOVIES. If you want to learn Muay Thai, find yourself a good Kru and practice. If you want to be entertained, watch a movie!

Simple, end of.

:flame:

movies? i only saw one so far... so i have to disagree with you!
and no, i only liked it when i put it on 'mute', coz that lady there yells like crazy

 

[AceHBK]

Ohhhhhh bbuuurrrrnnnnneeeddd. But face it, he is in movies... not Pride or UFC. If he was an excellent fighter he'd be in the big fights and so far I haven't seen him anywhere but the big screen. He is talented nonetheless. You can tell he has good technique in Muay Thai and an actor can't just learn that **** for a movie. Now he's no Robert De Niro either but you have to admit he's probably one of the only people in the world that can do and aerial through two panes of glass or jump through a ring of barbed wire head AND feet first. I am sure he has a good deal of training under his belt too, just like Jackie Chan. Neither are amazing fighters or actors but they do both well enough to be in movies!

Y is it that a person is not a great fighter unless they are in "big fights" or UFC /Pride/K1? If a person hasnt proved themselves to our satisfaction, they are justan "ordinary joe"? This is not meant at just tony jaa but many MArtists.

 

[AceHBK]

movies? i only saw one so far... so i have to disagree with you!
and no, i only liked it when i put it on 'mute', coz that lady there yells like crazy

I have Tom Yum Goong here at home and it is even better than Ong Bak.
Nice to see Jackie Chan do a cameo as well!!! Guess they will be doing a movie sometime in the future.