TKD\Karate cross-training?

[Gorilla]

My daughter is a highly skilled WTF Olympic Style fighter. She fights Nationally and Internationally. With the dawn of Electronic Hogus in tkd body points have become very scarce and lead leg head kicking has become very effective. I have two Questions. We live in Las Vegas is there a top notch sport karate school in Vegas. Do you think that X training with a top notch sport karate fighter would be good for both.

I am not trying to start a Karate Vs Tkd thread just looking for a little advice\help.

 

[Tez3]

One of the main differences I've found between karate and TKD comps is that as you said TKD score off front leg, karate will kick off either leg but use back leg mostly, I couldn't say whether this would be a problem for your daughter though.

 

[Grenadier]

It all depends on what she wants to do.

If she wants to stick exclusively with Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, then she might not be getting that much of a benefit by cross training, unless that school can offer something that her Tae Kwon Do dojang doesn't. A dojo that deals with sport Karate should be teaching good footwork, fundamentals, etc., and if her dojang already teaches this, then there's probably not a need to cross train at the dojo.

The rules for sport Karate and sport Tae Kwon Do are just too different. In the USA-NKF competitions, for example, quality punches to the body that demonstrate good control, form, power, etc., are scored liberally, whereas in olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, you will almost never see a body punch scored.

Sport Karate tends to focus more on footwork, setting up combinations of both kicks and punches (more emphasis on the punches), sweeps, takedowns, etc., and that's simply not of much use in the Olympic-style ring.

 

[Gorilla]

One of the main differences I've found between karate and TKD comps is that as you said TKD score off front leg, karate will kick off either leg but use back leg mostly, I couldn't say whether this would be a problem for your daughter though.

My daughter is a left leg back kicker and is much stronger with the left leg. Her lead leg is ok but we are looking for improvement. I was under the impression and I may be wrong wrong that allot of sport karate fighters are good with that lead leg to the face. We are trying to improve not only the kick but to defend against it.

My daughter has fought in both the Netherlands and Spain. The TKD fighters in Europe use that lead leg to the face very well. Most US fighters are better with the back leg we are looking to become more rounded and improve her game internationally. I am told that the strong lead leg comes out of Karate point fighting.

Tkd is moving to a higher guard to defend against the increase in head kicking. We would like to find somebody she can spare with that would be of help to both fighters

 

[Gorilla]

It all depends on what she wants to do.

If she wants to stick exclusively with Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, then she might not be getting that much of a benefit by cross training, unless that school can offer something that her Tae Kwon Do dojang doesn't. A dojo that deals with sport Karate should be teaching good footwork, fundamentals, etc., and if her dojang already teaches this, then there's probably not a need to cross train at the dojo.

The rules for sport Karate and sport Tae Kwon Do are just too different. In the USA-NKF competitions, for example, quality punches to the body that demonstrate good control, form, power, etc., are scored liberally, whereas in olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, you will almost never see a body punch scored.

Sport Karate tends to focus more on footwork, setting up combinations of both kicks and punches (more emphasis on the punches), sweeps, takedowns, etc., and that's simply not of much use in the Olympic-style ring.

Thanks she gets very good instruction. I have spoke with her Master he asked me to look around and see. We are just looking to get an edge. Something different to improve her TKD fighting. Maybe karate is the wrong place. Thanks for the post!

 

[Tez3]

In karate I've always been taught to fight off left and right stance, and kick with both front and back leg with the 'power' kick being the one off the back leg. We also used knees and elbows.
Grenadier has described the differences between the fighting styles and I have to agree, it's been nearly 15 years since I fought in karate competitions but I think the differences wouldn't help someone looking to kick more off the front leg. I went to a JKD class last night which was fun, they do all their kicks off the front leg, odd for me but they were also low kicks so no help for you.
I don't know tbh what would help but I'm sure there's someone here who will think of just the thing!

 

[terryl965]

Gorilla here is a real tip for help with that front leg, Brian Vancise here on Martial Talk was a ITF guy at one point he just moved to Vegas a couple of months ago, p.m. him and see if he would be willing to help with that front leg problem. He is top notch and a great instructor tech. wise. I would also look at a Kung Fu sport guy as well they can really help as well.
Zachary uses that front leg great but remember we do also sport Karate tournaments a couple of times a year.

 

[terryl965]

Jusr as a reminder to everyone he is referring to sport Karate where the back is an illegal to kick the back area so the front leg is used 90% of the time. Thier is a big difference frm Karate and sport Karate just like Tae Kwon Do and sport Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Grenadier]

Jusr as a reminder to everyone he is referring to sport Karate where the back is an illegal to kick the back area

Not in most cases. The USA-NKF rules, which are usually used for almost all competitions these days, or the AAU rules, which are still used for some competitions, allow strikes the back, provided that you don't hit the spine or kidneys. The back is a very, very valid target, and not illegal under such sanctioned events.

 

[Gorilla]

Gorilla here is a real tip for help with that front leg, Brian Vancise here on Martial Talk was a ITF guy at one point he just moved to Vegas a couple of months ago, p.m. him and see if he would be willing to help with that front leg problem. He is top notch and a great instructor tech. wise. I would also look at a Kung Fu sport guy as well they can really help as well.
Zachary uses that front leg great but remember we do also sport Karate tournaments a couple of times a year.

Thanks Terry I PM'd him

 

[Carol]

Gorilla here is a real tip for help with that front leg, Brian Vancise here on Martial Talk was a ITF guy at one point he just moved to Vegas a couple of months ago, p.m. him and see if he would be willing to help with that front leg problem. He is top notch and a great instructor tech. wise. I would also look at a Kung Fu sport guy as well they can really help as well.
Zachary uses that front leg great but remember we do also sport Karate tournaments a couple of times a year.

I was going to suggest the same as Terry.

Gorilla I don't know anything about sport fighting or competition so don't take this as gospel. The concern that I would have with regards to training with a sports Karate fighter is that it sounds to much like a solution looking for a problem to solve.

If it works out for you, you'll have a great resource in Brian. Best of luck to you both!

 

[terryl965]

Not in most cases. The USA-NKF rules, which are usually used for almost all competitions these days, or the AAU rules, which are still used for some competitions, allow strikes the back, provided that you don't hit the spine or kidneys. The back is a very, very valid target, and not illegal under such sanctioned events.

Just to make it clear, in sport Karate with AAU the back is an illegal scoring area what is legal is the side and the little part that just barely turns toward the back. We just got back from competing in both National and Juniors Olympics. The AOK does not allow kicks to the back now I do not know about the USA-NKF so they may but the reason they stop allowing kicks to the back is the damage it does to the Kidney and spine.

 

[Stac3y]

My school is sport karate, and we are a "Superfoot" (Bill Wallace) style school, so we kick almost exclusively with the lead leg. Our fighting stance is sideways. Bill Wallace has excellent drills for lead leg kicking--you might want to send your girl to one of his seminars. I went to a traditional Shotokan class a couple of times; it was really hard to make myself spar with back leg front kicks--in my style, using those is inviting a defensive side kick to the face or torso.

As to the back as a target, I've fought under AOK, SKITA, and NASKA rules. All of them allow kidney punches (except maybe SKITA; I'd have to look that up), but no other back strikes are legal. Kidney punches, while technically legal, are very, very rarely scored, so most people don't bother throwing them. Back of the head is always a target, though.

I would say that working with a very good sport karate fighter like Ross Levine or Bill Wallace would benefit just about anyone. What's important is to take away the parts of the instruction that work for you and leave the rest.

 

[Grenadier]

Just to make it clear, in sport Karate with AAU the back is an illegal scoring area what is legal is the side and the little part that just barely turns toward the back.

In the current rules for the AAU Shobu Sanbon (sport karate) divisions, kicks to all areas of the back are perfectly legal, and will score, unless they hit the top of the shoulders. There is nothing in the rules that forbid them.

http://www.aaukarate.org/RulesInfo/Handbook/ShobuSanbonCompetition.aspx

Basically, they use the same rules as what the USA-NKF uses, other than scoring point amounts.

On another note, I competed at the USA-NKF nationals this year, just a few weeks ago, and kicks to the back were certainly scored, provided that they were of good quality, and did not use excessive contact.

 

[Gorilla]

My school is sport karate, and we are a "Superfoot" (Bill Wallace) style school, so we kick almost exclusively with the lead leg. Our fighting stance is sideways. Bill Wallace has excellent drills for lead leg kicking--you might want to send your girl to one of his seminars. I went to a traditional Shotokan class a couple of times; it was really hard to make myself spar with back leg front kicks--in my style, using those is inviting a defensive side kick to the face or torso.

As to the back as a target, I've fought under AOK, SKITA, and NASKA rules. All of them allow kidney punches (except maybe SKITA; I'd have to look that up), but no other back strikes are legal. Kidney punches, while technically legal, are very, very rarely scored, so most people don't bother throwing them. Back of the head is always a target, though.

I would say that working with a very good sport karate fighter like Ross Levine or Bill Wallace would benefit just about anyone. What's important is to take away the parts of the instruction that work for you and leave the rest.

Thats what we are looking for...do they have any affiliated orgs near Las Vegas?

 

[Stac3y]

Thats what we are looking for...do they have any affiliated orgs near Las Vegas?

Your best bet would probably be to go to http://superfoot.com/ and ask if there are any Superfoot certified schools in Las Vegas, or if Mr. Wallace will be holding any seminars near you.

 

[Manny]

I think if your daughter is good in WTF/Olimpic TKD the crosstraining won't help her su much because this style of competition is much more diferent that the karate competition. Maybe your daughter can benefit just a little but not much. However remeber karate is more hands than kicks and this can benefit your girl in other area like open tournaments (the ones where karate, kung fu, tae kwon do,american karate,etc face each other) karate matches and IMO self defense.

So basically try what are you are thinking and give a chance and see for your own if this Xtraining can be benefical

Manny

 

[Gorilla]

Your best bet would probably be to go to http://superfoot.com/ and ask if there are any Superfoot certified schools in Las Vegas, or if Mr. Wallace will be holding any seminars near you.

None in Vegas...Made a call to one in Arizona and he gave me a good lead...Thanks

 

[Gorilla]

I think if your daughter is good in WTF/Olimpic TKD the crosstraining won't help her su much because this style of competition is much more diferent that the karate competition. Maybe your daughter can benefit just a little but not much. However remeber karate is more hands than kicks and this can benefit your girl in other area like open tournaments (the ones where karate, kung fu, tae kwon do,american karate,etc face each other) karate matches and IMO self defense.

So basically try what are you are thinking and give a chance and see for your own if this Xtraining can be benefical

Manny

Manny you maybe right can't seem to find a school in Vegas that would be suitable!!! I am not saying that it does not exist but we have not been able to find one!!! Our Master is putting together a strategy that we are going to work on in this area. They started working on it last night! Allot of it does not look like TKD techniques but it is the direction this sport is going!!! The hands down style of fighting that has been such a complaint about TKD is going to go away. A much higher gaurd is needed. The 3 point head kick is going to take care of that. It is a head hunters sport now!

 

[dancingalone]

Gorilla, have you looked into a kickboxing coach? Seems like your goals of gaining better kicks off the front leg as well as better hand defense could be attained there.