Time In Grade

[MJS]

There are a bunch of Krav Maga groups out there, all which have their own way of doing things, so I thought I'd toss out this question to the Krav Maga folks here. This is a question that I've discussed in other art sections as well.

Judging from what I've seen, it seems that in some orgs., people tend to advance pretty quick. Now, IMHO, I think that many times, people put way too much emphasis on getting rank. Its almost like an obsession with some people, as they think that if they advance quickly or get that black belt, that somehow, they'll automatically be good or the BB will give them some magical fighting powers.

So, lets here from the Krav Maga folks on the forum! What are your thoughts on rank? How does your org. handle the rank issue?

 

[Spork3245]

belt

   /bɛlt/
–noun 1. a band of flexible material, as leather or cord, for encircling the waist.
2. any encircling or transverse band, strip, or stripe.

At our school, belts mean little. We don't limit what you can learn due to the color of your belt. Belts are there for a sense of self-accomplishment, and to show rank. We do have "curriculum" dependent upon belt-color, but it's more so we can organize, ie: "This is a 'green-belt' defense", "this book covers 'yellow' and 'orange' belt material", etc. Again, at our school we've actually left belts to be optional, though I've found that many who say they "don't care" about a belt will often wind up taking a yellow-belt test in 9-12 months, as, again, it gives you a feeling of "accomplishment".
At the IKMA, the belt progression is very slow. It's been said by various IKMA practitioners that "as a yellow-belt in Krav Maga, on the street, you should be able to go toe-to-toe with a black-belt in most other martial-arts", and from what I've seen, I believe this to be true - but again, this only applies for the street, not a ring, and it's because of the way we train and what we train for. With the IKMA it takes 9-12 months just to get to Yellow (first belt) minimum, 27 to get to Orange, 52 for Green, 76 for Blue, 100 for Brown, and 124 to get to Black, and these are minimum required time of having been in the system, and is not even counting ability, so it may take you longer depending upon your skills... I'm not even going to get into the time frames for 2nd-9th black-belt dan's.
It does need to be noted that each organization has different curriculum and skills/defenses learned for each belt, so what Krav Maga World-Wide tests for their Yellow-Belt is not the same as to what IKMA (or IKMF/KMF or any other branch) tests.
Some people claim that "Krav Maga is for everyone!", I don't fully agree with this. The material taught in Yellow, Orange, and Green belt curriculums certainly are for everyone, but once attempting to reach Blue-Black belt, it certainly takes a certain level of true dedication and constant training. Of course, this is just my opinion, and only pertains to what is taught at the IKMA.
There's also many stories I've heard of North-American Black-Belts heading to Israel from certain American-based organizations, and simply "not fairing too well" against much "lower-ranked" students, but I'd rather not get into that.

 

[DarkShadowfax]

At our school, everyone trains together, eg white belts train together with brown belts etc, so in that matter, belts don't matter very much.
At times, we throw in some brown belt techniques to entertain people and to make sure they have at least an idea of how to deal with difficult situations (Threatening w/ guns, knife fights, etc). The white belts get to practice this as well.

As far as I know, belts have been introduced because a lot of people tend to attach some value to having a rank and to climbing in rank. A lot of people want some sort of visual proof that they are growing accomplished, or use this as a way to brag against their friends (Black Belt obsession). Back then, when there were only few to no belt tests, a lot of people left. When the belts were introduced, fewer people left.

For the belt tests, we make use of the curriculum found in Darren Levine's Complete Krav Maga. Compared to the IKMA and other martial arts, I must say that KMWW's belt progression is fast. I trained around 3-4 months before I was allowed to test into Yellow. This month, I tested into Orange (6 months in between). The students are selected for the belt tests based on ability and how often they train, so there will be less disappointments.
Students are then passed depending on their ability to handle stress, their mentality and correct execution of the techniques asked.

Personally, I like the fact that my belts indicate my improvement, but I don't feel like telling everyone "Hey, I'm an Orange Belt, that's cool, right?".
I also feel that I'll still have to spend a lot of time mastering my techniques.

 

[Spork3245]

As far as I know, belts have been introduced because a lot of people tend to attach some value to having a rank and to climbing in rank. A lot of people want some sort of visual proof that they are growing accomplished, or use this as a way to brag against their friends (Black Belt obsession). Back then, when there were only few to no belt tests, a lot of people left. When the belts were introduced, fewer people left.

Belts were introduced by Imi himself upon his founding of the IKMA to train civillians in Krav Maga back in the late 70's. The highest rank he has ever given out was an 8th-dan black-belt, of which only two of Imi's students received; Eli Avikzar and (current IKMA Grand Master) Haim Gidon. When Imi gave these out he said that there will be "9th and 10th dan's to follow", sadly Imi passed away before he could give these belts out, but over the past years Haim's students have presented him with a 9th, and then a 10th dan Black-Belt.

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Belts were introduced by Imi himself upon his founding of the IKMA to train civillians in Krav Maga back in the late 70's. The highest rank he has ever given out was an 8th-dan black-belt, of which only two of Imi's students received; Eli Avikzar and (current IKMA Grand Master) Haim Gidon. When Imi gave these out he said that there will be "9th and 10th dan's to follow", sadly Imi passed away before he could give these belts out, but over the past years Haim's students have presented him with a 9th, and then a 10th dan Black-Belt.

My bad, I meant the belt testing every 6 months, because 1-2 years before they only did this every 1,5 year or so.

 

[MJS]

Gee, all the views, and so few replies. Oh well, maybe some of us can breath some life back into this thread.

Questions, and these are not directed at any one person. Anyone is free to answer.

1) Time in grade. Is this something that is standard or does it depend on the person? In other words, lets say it takes 3mos to go from the first belt to the second. Does that person test at the 3mo mark or could it be longer, depending on whether or not the person is actually ready to test?

2) Is there a reason that some orgs. go thru the ranks faster than others?

3) Regarding what Spork said here:

It's been said by various IKMA practitioners that "as a yellow-belt in Krav Maga, on the street, you should be able to go toe-to-toe with a black-belt in most other martial-arts", and from what I've seen, I believe this to be true

I too, believe this to be true. Look at BJJ for example. What is it, something like 10yrs to get black belt? Yet a seasoned blue belt would most likely, as it was said above, have little to no issues dealing with an advanced rank student from other arts.

So, this hints at the fact that if you stay at a rank longer, devoting more time to really knowing the material, just think of how much better you'd be.

 

[MJS]

Anyone, anyone???

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Hm, this is only from what I know. So far, I've only trained w/ a single club so it might be different when compared to others.

1 - It depends on the person. There'll probably be a minimum of X amount of months before someone can test into X belt. People are invited to test into X belt if they're ready for it, so usually, the time lingers around the minimum.
(Belt tests are every half year, so some people might have to wait)

2 - I don't really know about why some organizations go through ranks faster than others. It'll probably be a money issue. (Faster belt progressing = more money).

3 - True, but not everyone cares about truly knowing the material. As long as they can show off, its fine.

 

[MJS]

Hm, this is only from what I know. So far, I've only trained w/ a single club so it might be different when compared to others.

1 - It depends on the person. There'll probably be a minimum of X amount of months before someone can test into X belt. People are invited to test into X belt if they're ready for it, so usually, the time lingers around the minimum.
(Belt tests are every half year, so some people might have to wait)

2 - I don't really know about why some organizations go through ranks faster than others. It'll probably be a money issue. (Faster belt progressing = more money).

3 - True, but not everyone cares about truly knowing the material. As long as they can show off, its fine.

1) Ok.

2) You're probably right on that.

3) And its those people that I hate to train with. If I'm paired up with someone, I expect them to attack me in a realistic fashion. In other words, if you're going to choke me, then choke! Dont place your hands gently on my shoulders, as if you're getting ready to massage me. Frankly, those people should not be in the arts. Whats the sense? Additionally, those people should not be allowed to test if they're not going to take the material seriously.

 

[Spork3245]

3) And its those people that I hate to train with. If I'm paired up with someone, I expect them to attack me in a realistic fashion. In other words, if you're going to choke me, then choke! Dont place your hands gently on my shoulders, as if you're getting ready to massage me. Frankly, those people should not be in the arts. Whats the sense? Additionally, those people should not be allowed to test if they're not going to take the material seriously.

Whenever I teach choke defenses, I always pull a random student up after demonstrating and say "One thing I need to make clear guys... *I place my hands just outside the neck onto the students' inner-shoulders" this a massage... *I then wrap my hands around the neck with some light-pressure" THIS is a choke... Get to work!". I also constantly yell at people who punch 2-3 inches away from their partners face, I tell them to make contact; "You're not trying to knock out your partner, if you do then your partner winds up going to the hospital and I'll make you sit in the corner for the rest of the night! If you make contact, it's light, but it's a good punch - This is as much of a drill for the attacker as it is for the defender - this will help you learn (power) control as well.". I've also started grabbing a random student and tell them "not to defend" and I throw a punch 2-3 inches away from their face and then state "That was a perfect defense! They just did nothing and didn't get hit, the defense was perfect! MAKE YOUR PARTNER HAVE TO DEFEND!!! If you are not with-in reach, your partner is not learning how to defend!".

Anyway, with IKMA it takes roughly 9 months to get to Yellow Belt, just because you've been a member of the IKMA for 9 months doesn't neccessarily mean we'll let you test or that you're ready to test. We are not a "belt factory", but, at the same time, do not want people to test who would fail, as this would be pointless and would only discourage people. We try not to be mean about it though, and will say "Hey, [insert name], the next test will be in 4-6 months, maybe you should wait for that so you have the time to become 100% confident in all the techniques." or we'll sometimes suggest a few rounds of private-lessons in the month prior to the test.

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Whenever I teach choke defenses, I always pull a random student up after demonstrating and say "One thing I need to make clear guys... *I place my hands just outside the neck onto the students' inner-shoulders" this a massage... *I then wrap my hands around the neck with some light-pressure" THIS is a choke... Get to work!". I also constantly yell at people who punch 2-3 inches away from their partners face, I tell them to make contact; "You're not trying to knock out your partner, if you do then your partner winds up going to the hospital and I'll make you sit in the corner for the rest of the night! If you make contact, it's light, but it's a good punch - This is as much of a drill for the attacker as it is for the defender - this will help you learn (power) control as well.".

... just because you've been a member of the IKMA for 9 months doesn't neccessarily mean we'll let you test or that you're ready to test..

What he said, only I don't teach. Instead of making light contact in the face, we punch beside the head and well past it or to the chest with force so at least we'll punch with a good amount of force in a real situation.
Even then I'm still hesitant to doing so, so I'll have to work on this. Anyone have tips?

 

[MJS]

What he said, only I don't teach. Instead of making light contact in the face, we punch beside the head and well past it or to the chest with force so at least we'll punch with a good amount of force in a real situation.
Even then I'm still hesitant to doing so, so I'll have to work on this. Anyone have tips?

I'd say get a pair of MMA gloves and punch at the face. At least this way, if contact is made, even if it is light, this'll offer more protection.

 

[DarkShadowfax]

I'd say get a pair of MMA gloves and punch at the face. At least this way, if contact is made, even if it is light, this'll offer more protection.

Thanks.

 

[Spork3245]

What he said, only I don't teach. Instead of making light contact in the face, we punch beside the head and well past it or to the chest with force so at least we'll punch with a good amount of force in a real situation.
Even then I'm still hesitant to doing so, so I'll have to work on this. Anyone have tips?

Punching to the side of the head trains your muscle-memory to punch there as well. To the chest, or open-hand to the forehead is fine as the spacing is much less than punching off to the side, and if you do wind-up hitting someone in the chest while defending, or open-handing their forehead, out of instinct, at least you've hit them and "shocked" them for a split second. One of the top-ranking instructors in Israel used to always punch off to the side when training, someone attacked him on the streets one day and he wound up doing the 360-defense, but punching off to the side rather than at the attacker, however, he still continued combatives without hesitation and immediately grabbed the shoulder and kneed, even though he made it out of the conflict fine, he refuses to punch off to the side, or allow any of his students to do so.

Everyone has their own opinion and own way of training and are certainly entitled to it, however, I would just be careful of training to punch away from a target.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Just with regards to that last bit about punching off to the side of the head etc, we get told that a lot in class. Do something enough times and it becomes muscle memory. There were stories of LEO's over here getting shot because during their training in the range, they would stop after emptying their clips and pick up the empty shells and put them in their pockets and that was something that came out in the street. Radically changed training policies and methods over here.

Also we get told that if you train to miss (punch short etc) that's what will happen under adrenaline. Even if you train with contact, while your targetting might be spot on, you will generate significantly less impact under adrenaline and stress than you would in a dojo or with training partners. Don't quote me on this but I believe it was a quarter of the force. Of course that's without constant training in responding under those conditions but someone could train for 10 years, develop great power in a relaxed situation and then find they are no where nearly as impressive when it counts!