Those who forget the past...

[CuongNhuka]

Are doomed to repeat it. In the war college I made a comment about the Roman General Varus (I'll be getting to the point in a moment). He was the occupying leader in Germania (now SW Germany and few areas around it). He was incharge of the 12, 13, and 14 legions, Romes best and brightest. Now, Varus was a bumbler, and the worst part was, he didn't know he was a bumbler. He had a trusted commander in (who would come to be know as) Herman The German. Varus's other commanders insisted that he not trust Herman, but Varus didn't care.
One day, Varus got word of a rebellion in the North of the Territory. Varus beleived that Germania was a largely passived area, and was not only ready, but willing to become a full Province. The Germans were neither. As Varus moved his massive force through the Teutoberg forest, Herman asked if he could take his force of Germans into the forest, and to the surrounding country, looking for allies. Varus thought about for a moment, and agreed.
Later that day (or the next, I cann't recall) a MASSIVE force of german's attacked. After a hail of arrows and javelins, the Germans rushed the Romans. They split the MILE long column into four or five sections. The cavalry did there best to, well... not die. They turned tail and ran for it. The Romans had no archers, and there javelins were infective at this point. Soon, the Germans made a uniamous retreat. Out of no where they came, and back to no where they went.
The next day, the attacked resumed. With similar results. The differnce was, it was raining. Heavily. Roman javelins were completely useless know. Anouther massive amount of the Roman force was destroyed. The next day, it ended. The Romans were trapped. A peat bog on one side, a heavily forested hill on the other, and Germans filling in the gaps. The Romans were wipped off the map.

Now then, why bring this story up? Well, if certain people, who shall remain nameless (his initials are George W Bush), had heard about this battle, and had comprehended what it meant, we might not be as S.O.L. in Iraq. Or we might not be there at all.
So, what events in history would you make mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to be a president? Other then this example, the events of Vietnam would be another good example.

 

[theletch1]

I'll keep my answer short and sweet.

You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think.

Mandatory reading simply means he/she has the knowledge in their head. It's no guarantee that they'll interpret the knowledge correctly.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'll keep my answer short and sweet.

You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think.

Mandatory reading simply means he/she has the knowledge in their head. It's no guarantee that they'll interpret the knowledge correctly.

Right, and neither will it mean that they'll USE the knowledge to their benefit. Even more so that whether they'll even know HOW to use the knowledge to their benefit.

 

[Kacey]

I'll keep my answer short and sweet.

You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think.

Mandatory reading simply means he/she has the knowledge in their head. It's no guarantee that they'll interpret the knowledge correctly.

Indeed. An educated idiot is still an idiot. Wisdom does not come with age or knowledge - it comes from learning from experience, something far too many people actually do. I would rather elected a president (or any other official) who has learned wisdom, than one who has only read (but not learned from) history.

 

[Phoenix44]

I think Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones should be required viewing. That's when the Senate is frightened and tricked by the Commander In Chief, citing an impending war with the Al-Qaeda Confederacy (in cahoots with the Petro-Trade Federation), to grant him Imperial Powers under the Patriot Act. The Senators, including the gullible Jar Jar Binx, didn't even bother reading the legislation before taking the vote. This resulted in a purge of the liberal Jedi, a galactic war, and a despotic empire that continued until Episode VI.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'll keep my answer short and sweet.

You can lead a man to knowledge but you cannot make him think.

Mandatory reading simply means he/she has the knowledge in their head. It's no guarantee that they'll interpret the knowledge correctly.

That is true. So, how would one go about making sure that the person understands what the story/situation is about? Book report....

 

[CuongNhuka]

Right, and neither will it mean that they'll USE the knowledge to their benefit. Even more so that whether they'll even know HOW to use the knowledge to their benefit.

Anouther good point. The hope in this situation (becuase thats what 99% of life is) is the person will:
A, Have the nessicary intellignce to be able to intrepert info
B, Have the nessicary intellignce to know to apply info
C, Have the nessicary intellignce to know when to apply info.

So, maybe make an IQ test madatory?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Indeed. An educated idiot is still an idiot. Wisdom does not come with age or knowledge - it comes from learning from experience, something far too many people actually do. I would rather elected a president (or any other official) who has learned wisdom, than one who has only read (but not learned from) history.

A repeat of TheLetch and MA-Caver is order. I go back to my "make an IQ test mandatory?" addition. IQ is more about what you can figure out, correct?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Are doomed to repeat it. In the war college I made a comment about the Roman General Varus (I'll be getting to the point in a moment). He was the occupying leader in Germania (now SW Germany and few areas around it). He was incharge of the 12, 13, and 14 legions, Romes best and brightest. Now, Varus was a bumbler, and the worst part was, he didn't know he was a bumbler. He had a trusted commander in (who would come to be know as) Herman The German. Varus's other commanders insisted that he not trust Herman, but Varus didn't care.
One day, Varus got word of a rebellion in the North of the Territory. Varus beleived that Germania was a largely passived area, and was not only ready, but willing to become a full Province. The Germans were neither. As Varus moved his massive force through the Teutoberg forest, Herman asked if he could take his force of Germans into the forest, and to the surrounding country, looking for allies. Varus thought about for a moment, and agreed.
Later that day (or the next, I cann't recall) a MASSIVE force of german's attacked. After a hail of arrows and javelins, the Germans rushed the Romans. They split the MILE long column into four or five sections. The cavalry did there best to, well... not die. They turned tail and ran for it. The Romans had no archers, and there javelins were infective at this point. Soon, the Germans made a uniamous retreat. Out of no where they came, and back to no where they went.
The next day, the attacked resumed. With similar results. The differnce was, it was raining. Heavily. Roman javelins were completely useless know. Anouther massive amount of the Roman force was destroyed. The next day, it ended. The Romans were trapped. A peat bog on one side, a heavily forested hill on the other, and Germans filling in the gaps. The Romans were wipped off the map.

Now then, why bring this story up? Well, if certain people, who shall remain nameless (his initials are George W Bush), had heard about this battle, and had comprehended what it meant, we might not be as S.O.L. in Iraq. Or we might not be there at all.
So, what events in history would you make mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to be a president? Other then this example, the events of Vietnam would be another good example.

GWB pushes the plans he is told to push. The original plan was to keep the Iraqi military in tact. They instead decided it would be better to let the existing weapons and the trained personel just sort of drift away to be used against us. This was just one plan over the other at the last minute. No amount of book learnin could have stopped this.
Sean

 

[CuongNhuka]

I think Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones should be required viewing. That's when the Senate is frightened and tricked by the Commander In Chief, citing an impending war with the Al-Qaeda Confederacy (in cahoots with the Petro-Trade Federation), to grant him Imperial Powers under the Patriot Act. The Senators, including the gullible Jar Jar Binx, didn't even bother reading the legislation before taking the vote. This resulted in a purge of the liberal Jedi, a galactic war, and a despotic empire that continued until Episode VI.

THAT IS AWESOME! I love how you managed to make such clear cut comparison of between the movie and the results of recent presidentail actions.

By the way, I'm a Nilistic Jedi. LOL

 

[CuongNhuka]

GWB pushes the plans he is told to push. The original plan was to keep the Iraqi military in tact. They instead decided it would be better to let the existing weapons and the trained personel just sort of drift away to be used against us. This was just one plan over the other at the last minute. No amount of book learnin could have stopped this.
Sean

True. My only thought is that if president no-brains had heard about the results of Varus' little romp through the woods, he might be more ready to acept such things as: "They don't like us as much as you think"; "They are not passive. They are very anti-passive"; "We will die in a hail of arrows/swords/spears next to a peat bog because of your idiocy."

 

[Kacey]

A repeat of TheLetch and MA-Caver is order. I go back to my "make an IQ test mandatory?" addition. IQ is more about what you can figure out, correct?

No. IQ is your theoretical ability to learn, as determined by your attained score on a standardized assessment; at its root, IQ correlates only with success in school, and is strongly related to vocabulary. Wisdom is the ability to learn from your experiences and to change your behavior and reactions based on that wisdom. In that context, wisdom is strongly related to the badly-misnamed "common sense" (which, sadly, is lacking in many people); I have known far too many intelligent people with little or no common sense, and I have also known many people of average or lower intelligence who had a great deal of sense about things that really mattered.

GWB pushes the plans he is told to push. The original plan was to keep the Iraqi military in tact. They instead decided it would be better to let the existing weapons and the trained personel just sort of drift away to be used against us. This was just one plan over the other at the last minute. No amount of book learning could have stopped this.
Sean

This is the point I was headed toward - too many people who perform well on IQ tests try to make the real world fit what they've read in books, and have no idea how to react when the world does not conform to what the books say.

 

[CuongNhuka]

No. IQ is your theoretical ability to learn, as determined by your attained score on a standardized assessment; at its root, IQ correlates only with success in school, and is strongly related to vocabulary. Wisdom is the ability to learn from your experiences and to change your behavior and reactions based on that wisdom. In that context, wisdom is strongly related to the badly-misnamed "common sense" (which, sadly, is lacking in many people); I have known far too many intelligent people with little or no common sense, and I have also known many people of average or lower intelligence who had a great deal of sense about things that really mattered.



This is the point I was headed toward - too many people who perform well on IQ tests try to make the real world fit what they've read in books, and have no idea how to react when the world does not conform to what the books say.

Well, shoot. I don't suppose there is a test of some short that checks your ability to reason and figure things out.
I'm thinking that I should add the line of "lets assume that the general/president has the ability to put one and one together, and figure out what two is". If you understand what I mean.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

True. My only thought is that if president no-brains had heard about the results of Varus' little romp through the woods, he might be more ready to acept such things as: "They don't like us as much as you think"; "They are not passive. They are very anti-passive"; "We will die in a hail of arrows/swords/spears next to a peat bog because of your idiocy."

I don't think it'll take too much longer before the public's growing, modern cry of "Quintili Vare, Legiones redde!!!" can't be ignored anymore.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I don't think it'll take too much longer before the public's growing, modern cry of "Quintili Vare, Legiones redde!!!" can't be ignored anymore.

You'll have to keep in mind, I don't speak Latin. Mind translating that for me?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

During the reign of Augustus the Romans began to conquer Germania in 12 BC, but withdrew completely to the left bank of the Rhine River after the desastrous defeat of the Varus Battle in AD 9 where his legions got wiped out as you point out. The moment Augustus received the bad news he allegedly cried and shouted out loud: "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!" ("Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!")

 

[CuongNhuka]

I didn't know that he shouted that when he found out. Although I did here that Augustus would call out in his sleep "Varus, Varus, what have you done with my legions?"

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Oh, he probably did, it troubled him for some while.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Yah I would imagine that losing your three best legions would.