Thinking outside the box

[Rob_Broad]

How many people like to rip a self defense technique apart and see how many ways they can up with the same result. I know this is just a different way of loooking at the equation formula, but not everybody sees things the same way. How do you explain to others the idea of being able to insert, delete, prefix, suffix etc... if they can't see what you are saying in the beginning.

 

[Seig]

Before someone can learn to think outside the box, they must first realize they are IN a box. I make then do it until they are sick of it, then I make them do it until I am sick of them doing it. By the time they have done a technique so many times they begin to despise the motion, not only has it been ingrained, but it allows them to see outside of the technique through a more through understanding of it.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Ideal ~ what if ~ formulation

We teach the Ideal initially to learn movements, targets, weapons, coordination etc. which is Seig's point...... develop a strong foundation first!!!

WE THEN should progress to where Rob is to examine all the options we can and share those with a host of others to see if we missed anything.....

Finally we then realize through the prior efforts that we can formulate "on the spot" any number of different actions that would be successful!

That in lies the essence of training..

:asian:

 

[brianhunter]

mannnn dont even have to climb a mountain to get all this knowledge

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Ideal ~ what if ~ formulation

We teach the Ideal initially to learn movements, targets, weapons, coordination etc. which is Seig's point...... develop a strong foundation first!!!

WE THEN should progress to where Rob is to examine all the options we can and share those with a host of others to see if we missed anything.....

Finally we then realize through the prior efforts that we can formulate "on the spot" any number of different actions that would be successful!

That in lies the essence of training..

:asian:

I agree in the process, but not that it's the essence. But we don't have to agree, and maybe that's the essence...




mannnn dont even have to climb a mountain to get all this knowledge

??? no mater what, you get knowledge, it's what you get, and how you choose to use it.


/Yari

 

[tonbo]

I agree with a lot of what's been said....

You have to have the foundation, and you should be REAL good friends with a technique before you start playing with it. Doing it over and over a couple of times is not gonna cut it.

Once you have the technique down, I think it is important to play with it. Prefix, suffix, rearrange, all the fun stuff. Have fun with it. Do it blindfolded, without moving your legs, left side only, right side only, all kinds of things.

One drill that I like to play with is this: take the technique, and come up with a counter for it (i.e., what you would do to counter the moves if someone were doing them on you). Make that into its own technique. Now practice that technique a few times to get it down. Now come up with a defense for that one.......

Do the techniques backwards. That's always good for some insight....

And yer right.....ya don't even have to climb a mountain for all this.....

Peace--

 

[Rob_Broad]

I started this thread so I could see that the people here are thinking individuals. We all convince ourselves we are open to the learning possibilities, but how manytimes times have we heard or even said that is not how I was taught the technique. I sometimes find a group of kenpo people who are supposed to be so open minded about self defense techniques to be the most closed minded group on the face of the planet.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Bonehead

I started this thread so I could see that the people here are thinking individuals. We all convince ourselves we are open to the learning possibilities, but how manytimes times have we heard or even said that is not how I was taught the technique. I sometimes find a group of kenpo people who are supposed to be so open minded about self defense techniques to be the most closed minded group on the face of the planet.

If things violate the principles then things violate the principles. Sometimes things are wrong based on principles and concepts, I see this occasionally and I correct it if I can- about the right amount of testiness for me . I think some people here have really opened their minds and have realized opinions change with knowledge. :idunno: Just my two cents.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

If you really look hard, you'll notice something even more amazing. Yes, we may argue until the next ice age about a technique having a certain element to it, pro or con; but, if you look closely, we usually agree on the principle. We all travel different paths to the same road. Like I said to Mr. C in one of our conversations, when I first read Infinite Insights Vol1, I was furious. I was furious because I found out that all the things I have spent most of my life learning the hard way were already out there in print. Just when I think I have finally gotten a really firm grasp on something one of you gentleman comes along and shows me that I have mastered only a part of the concept and am frequently missing that othe half/ two thirds. I think that Martial Artist as a whole are both very open minded to new ideas but close minded to variations because of the fact that we drill a certain way 1000's of times and then "think" someone is telking us we have been doing it wrong for 10 years. Every one wants to stay true to Mr. Parker as best they can, but without him to stand over our shoulders and say "Atta boy, Johnie" we second guess ourselves and what he meant. :soapbox: Off

 

[Goldendragon7]

Kenpoists rely on the old lines....... "That's the way I was taught or that's NOT the way I was taught!" Well you can make either statement.... but move on..... and examine the options. The real question is does it work and from what perspective are you coming from. Many if not most of the techniques out there are good as long as they conform to principles of motion and the other Kenpo Tools.

Actually I have seen this more often than not and both are correct just altered slightly .... now if you want to discuss why all the alteration..... that is a different string....

Problem is ....... we are all at different levels and we need to realize that and talk to the other person on the lowest level or until they understand the other persons point of view.

Standardization was "NOT" a strong point of Ed Parker. He was too excited with all the options that one could use with this art to narrow it down and be "frozen in time" to only one delayed sword version! Thus he was always showing the most versatile of the Kenpo Tools the "Equation Formula".

We have not yet realized that Kenpo is a multi Leveled system. There is the first "beginner" level where the exact technique is not so important but rather to gain general movement and understandings of the system and tools. A get acquainted period if you will...... then move along to an intermediate level where structure and form start to develop more rapidly. Then on to and Advanced level where you go back and continue to upgrade your skills and improve both knowledge and physical prowess. Then on to Sage-ship.... where understanding sets in.....

:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

this thought is drilled into our heads:

TECHNIQUES ARE ONLY IDEAS.

we learn a lot of different techniques so we have a lot of different ideas engrained (sp?) in our muscle memory, hopefully to the point where we don't consciously choose which technique to use for that punch flying at our faces, because by the time the brain registers the need to react, the muscles have already chosen a course of action and reacted for you...then the brain catches up and goes "oh. I guess that works."

we don't deliberately dissect techniques to change them. we dissect them when we're learning, and then we just pick a partner and the instructor calls out an attack, and when you hear "left hand punch" you better react with SOMETHING or you're gonna get hit. These drills teach you to react, and generally you don't end up using a perfect "technique" you use parts of them, but normally you just react.

if you're in the street, you're not going to end up with a perfect studio attack, so you can't use a perfect studio defense. you need to adapt, and drills like the one above teach you to move first and think later, because if you take the time to think, you've just taken a moment to dig your own grave. If you're attacked, nobody's going to care if you did "Shield and Sword" perfectly. They're going to care that you walked away and the other guy didn't.

just my $0.02

 

[Goldendragon7]

That is exactly what you should do as well as constantly work on your power and accuracy! Great Job!

:asian:

 

[tonbo]

I will second what Nightingale said, with this analogy:

Remember that Kenpo is designed to work as an alphabet of motion.

When we learned how to spell, we learned to sound out words and to try to spell them from their sounds. We learned the letters and how they were arranged. We learned sentences and different ways to write them.

However, no one ever taught us how *we* should speak, write, or compose.

Once we learned the basics, each of us came up with our own "flair" and writing style. Some use big words, others are more direct and plain. Same with Kenpo. We learn the techniques as guidelines (and, yes, for belt promotions...hehe); we don't believe that we will use a technique exactly as it is written when confronted on the street.

Learn the techniques for what they are, AS they are. Play with them on your own. Get the concepts down that are being taught through the techniques. Once ya got that, *then* playtime comes....and it can be much more enjoyable that way.

Hehe....relying on "That's not the way *I* was taught" is a lot like saying, "Well, that's not the way my mom dressed *me*"......Your mileage *will* vary......

Peace--

 

[Nightingale]

yeah, that! hehe. Tonbo said it better, i think.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by tonbo

comes....and it can be much more enjoyable that way.

Hehe....relying on "That's not the way *I* was taught" is a lot like saying, "Well, that's not the way my mom dressed *me*"......Your mileage *will* vary......

Peace--

........Or saying to someone,"You're Ugly and Mr. Parker taught YOU funny"

 

[Nightingale]

:rofl:

 

[tonbo]

........Or saying to someone,"You're Ugly and Mr. Parker taught YOU funny"

:rofl:

YEAH!! And your little dog, too!! (And the horse you rode in on!!)

:rofl:

Peace--

 

[Goldendragon7]

I know several that resemble that remark!

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

The dog or the horse?


:asian:

 

[Eraser]

Greetings...

I have read all posts on this topic.. and I was just wondering.. yes its great to vary the tecnique (im sure there is more than one way to sheer a sheep) But do you also plan in the case where when you apply a move, wether it be a block, joint lock ect.. and the attacker doesn't react the same as the students do in the class room.. do you study countermoves for those instances.. What if a move or tecnique doesn't work???? Then What??

Just curious!!!