A comparison between Okinawan Kempo and American Kempo

[Makalakumu]

The following posts, 7-13, in this thread sparked this topic...

One thought that came to mind was that in many ways, it looks like Ed Parker re-invented the wheel. Okinawan Kempo does many of the same things, sans the zillions of follow-up strikes. This brings about a number of questions...

1. In the kempo early days, were the traditional Okinawan kata practiced? (Pinan, Naihanchi, Bassai, etc)
2. If not, how does Okinawan Kempo work into the equation, if at all?
3. Lastly, did Ed Parker reinvent the wheel of Okinawan Kempo or did he innovate something completely new?

I am not a kempo practicioner, so alot of these questions are being asked from the outside looking in. What do you think?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Flying Crane]

I had a feeling we'd see some more inquiries about this. I personally appreciate the questions from the outside. It sort of causes me to step back and take a look at things from a different perspective and that can be enlightening and useful.

I believe what is known as "Okinawan Kempo" is entirely different from Mr. Parker's American Kenpo. They just share a similar name. I believe Mr. Parker's Kenpo did not originate with Okinawan Kempo.

Mr. Parker learned kenpo from William Chow in Hawaii. Mr. Chow learned the family kenpo art of James Mitose, but I also believe he had other teachers as well, so what he taught to people like Ed Parker was not exactly the same as the Mitose art. This is a subject of debate in the kenpo world: exactly who taught what to whom, and how was it passed down. If someone disputes what I am saying, I won't be surprised. This is the time period of like the 1920s thru the 1940s, maybe even into the 1950s.

Mr. Parker began teaching what he learned from Mr. Chow, in the 1950s. He also had other teachers in other arts, such as Ark Yuey Wong with Chinese martial arts, and these influences caused him to make changes to the art along the way. I believe the changes never really stopped, or were considered complete. This is why Mr. Parker's early students, like Al Tracy, do things differently from his later students, like Larry Tatum and Ron Chapel. And people who came and went during any given period of time will do things differently as well. What they do reflects the developmental stage of the art, as it was during the time they trained with Mr. Parker, or with people who were close to Mr. Parker.

To my knowledge, Mr. Parker never practiced the Pinan or other Okinawan kata. Mr. Chapel would be a much better authority on this, as well as probably most of what I am writing here, but I'm giving it my best shot. I don't know if the Mitose art, or what Mr. Chow practiced and taught contained these, or other traditional Okinawan kata.

As to your last question, those who were close to Mr. Parker believe he was a gifted innovator, and he developed something new and pushed the development of the art to new heights. I never knew him, and I have never trained with those who were close to him so I cannot take a position regarding this. I think regardless, the art is, like any art, very effective if in capable hands.

 

[Makalakumu]

I had a feeling we'd see some more inquiries about this. I personally appreciate the questions from the outside. It sort of causes me to step back and take a look at things from a different perspective and that can be enlightening and useful.

Kempo is an art I'm really curious about and it's not really something that is practiced alot in my area. I'm glad that you find questions like these as useful...

I believe what is known as "Okinawan Kempo" is entirely different from Mr. Parker's American Kenpo. They just share a similar name. I believe Mr. Parker's Kenpo did not originate with Okinawan Kempo.

I would disagree here. Okinawan kempo is primarily a striking art with locks, throws, limb destructions, pressure points, etc. It uses strikes to basically set up a variety of these things from a whole bunch of different attacks. From some of the techniques that I've seen, there is a large similarity between the two, with some looking like they've come right out of the classical kata.

Mr. Parker learned kenpo from William Chow in Hawaii. Mr. Chow learned the family kenpo art of James Mitose, but I also believe he had other teachers as well, so what he taught to people like Ed Parker was not exactly the same as the Mitose art. This is a subject of debate in the kenpo world: exactly who taught what to whom, and how was it passed down. If someone disputes what I am saying, I won't be surprised. This is the time period of like the 1920s thru the 1940s, maybe even into the 1950s.

I may be mistaken, but Mitose was known to have practiced Naihanchi and he claimed to have been a student of Choki Motobu.

Mr. Parker began teaching what he learned from Mr. Chow, in the 1950s. He also had other teachers in other arts, such as Ark Yuey Wong with Chinese martial arts, and these influences caused him to make changes to the art along the way. I believe the changes never really stopped, or were considered complete. This is why Mr. Parker's early students, like Al Tracy, do things differently from his later students, like Larry Tatum and Ron Chapel. And people who came and went during any given period of time will do things differently as well. What they do reflects the developmental stage of the art, as it was during the time they trained with Mr. Parker, or with people who were close to Mr. Parker.

I suppose this leads to all sorts of arguments about who is doing the "real" kempo...:whip:

To my knowledge, Mr. Parker never practiced the Pinan or other Okinawan kata. Mr. Chapel would be a much better authority on this, as well as probably most of what I am writing here, but I'm giving it my best shot. I don't know if the Mitose art, or what Mr. Chow practiced and taught contained these, or other traditional Okinawan kata.

Even if he did not, I think that maybe the influence is still there...

As to your last question, those who were close to Mr. Parker believe he was a gifted innovator, and he developed something new and pushed the development of the art to new heights. I never knew him, and I have never trained with those who were close to him so I cannot take a position regarding this. I think regardless, the art is, like any art, very effective if in capable hands.

Even if Mr. Parker reinvented the wheel, that is no easy task. It would require great innovative skills regardless. Anyway, if anyone can point out exactly how these two beasts are different, that would be really cool.

 

[pstarr]

The original Okinawan form of "kenpo" was an early form of karate - but "kara-te", as a term for their art, hadn't been used yet. It's the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of "Chuan Fa." Seiyu Oyata, a 10th dan, originally referred to his method as Okinawan Kenpo...

 

[Flying Crane]

I would disagree here. Okinawan kempo is primarily a striking art with locks, throws, limb destructions, pressure points, etc. It uses strikes to basically set up a variety of these things from a whole bunch of different attacks. From some of the techniques that I've seen, there is a large similarity between the two, with some looking like they've come right out of the classical kata.

Parker's kenpo does have similarities in this way, and Mitose's family art, which I believe they used the term "kempo" to describe, probably does have roots in the Okinawan arts that were known as "Te", and later became "karate". Pstarr's post touches upon this well. I think he has probably hit the target. Any of the arts that came out of Okinawa under the name of "Te" or Karate will probably have significant similarities. I believe the Kosho Ryu, or Kosho Shorei Ryu is the art that is traced to the Mitoses, and is still practiced today. There are people on this forum who practice this, and there are all kinds of arguments over legitimacy and whether James Mitose was any good or just a fraud, and legitimacy of his successors and such. It gets ugly sometimes and is another example of the bickering that goes on in the kenpo world. There are other offshoots of the William Chow and Ed Parker kenpos, such as Fred Villari's Shaolin Kempo and Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo (I might have the M and N mixed around there), and the Kajukenbo group. But these have become pretty established as their own arts, but with the common root of William Chow. Again, some of these have a lot of politics and bickering attached to them.

I may be mistaken, but Mitose was known to have practiced Naihanchi and he claimed to have been a student of Choki Motobu.

That sounds familiar, I don't know enough about it to know for sure.

I suppose this leads to all sorts of arguments about who is doing the "real" kempo...:whip:

You better believe it. Cruise around in the Kenpo discussion threads, I think there are entire threads dedicated to this argument, and attempts to discredit certain lineages.

Even if he did not, I think that maybe the influence is still there...

Could be. If the roots were there the influences could still be visible to someone knowledgeable, even tho the end product has been changed significantly.

 

[Gentle Fist]

The original Okinawan form of "kenpo" was an early form of karate - but "kara-te", as a term for their art, hadn't been used yet. It's the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of "Chuan Fa." Seiyu Oyata, a 10th dan, originally referred to his method as Okinawan Kenpo...

Hit the nail on the head.

Kenpo was used as the term karate is used today, it basically was for any striking art.

Mitose never studied under Motobu Sensei, but it is quite possible he studied under Kamesuke Higashiona in the art of Karate Kenpo, while Kamesuke was living in Hawaii. Higashiona was a student under Mizhuo Mutsu, who was a student of Motobu. So theres the bridge.

 

[robertmrivers]

I provided a synopsis in a similar thread here:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15048&page=2&highlight=kempo+rivers

near the bottom...robertmrivers...

When you see Okinawan Kempo at the higher levels (Dan Levels) and Ed Parker Kempo/ AK they look more and more similar. What people consider the "differences" between the arts are only seen at the beginning levels.Unless you have actually studies BOTH arts to a significant degree you cannot compare the two.

What nobody seems to notice in the Okinawan forms is the "front side backside" motion of the "blocks". When one stops doing blocks and start doing the techniques correctly AK stylists are surprised at how similar a lot of it is.

One needs only look at the history of Kempo in Hawaii to know the true history of AK... Okinawan Karate (Be it the Kata or the principles and waza as taught by visiting instructors or students of the arts tranplanted there) with Jujutsu (Jujutsu (Okazaki), Judo (many visiting Judoka) and Aikido (Ueshiba and Tohei bothe visited) and that is it. Parker created new forms and new terminology to describe things that have been done in India, China, Okinawa and Japan for a thousand years. The great thing about AK is that a practitioner gets a chance to practice some of the advanced waza at an earlier stage of the training. The unfortunate thing about Okinawan Kempo is that most people do not stick around with the organizations in Okinawa/ Japan long enough to understand these links. Thus, Kempo/ Karate gets a bad rep for being only kata, being linear, and making inefficient blocking and evasive movements. This is the basic level of understanding and unfortunately is where many people stop their training in exchange for inflated rank.

On a side not, Mitose did not study with Motobu Sensei. Motobu Sensei was only in Hawaii for a month and he was in a detention area. The only person to visit him was Thomas Miyashiro. But, many people had Motobu Sensei's book plus Miyagi Sensei and several other Okinawan stylists did make their way into Hawaii.

American Kenpo is what it is...a blend...just as many other arts in the world are. Was Parker "re-inventing the wheel"...well, this almost has a negative connotation to it. I will say that there is nothing new about what he taught. Elements of his system can be found under different terminology in almost every indigenous martial art on earth. It IS organized very well and lets the student study various aspects of self defense, tactics and principles in one complete package. But, there are other packages out there...they're just wrapped differently.

Gassho

Rob Rivers

 

[James Kovacich]

You can make your own comparison here.
First with the Oknawan
http://www.okkf.org/kata.htm

and second with Ed Parker himself, on each page click the top left video clip and you can hear it from the horses mouth.
http://ikenpo.com/at_the_movies_kenpo_pg_2.html
http://ikenpo.com/at_the_movies.html