The x in Kenpo

[mj-hi-yah]

I am refining my personal black belt form. It is based on the x in self defense (Kenpo specifically) with attacks coming from points on the 10-4 by 8-2 lines. I'm starting with basic x-blocks and moving on to the most advanced applications taken from Kenpo techniques. I am incorporating any movement in which the arms cross for self defense such as windmill blocks, parries and orbits. I'm wondering if anyone has any information, thoughts or ideas, or knows of any articles on this subject - applications, anything on the universal pattern dealing with the cross or the x, anything.Thanks

 

[Touch Of Death]

We use the term open ended triangle, and don't forget your front and rear cross overs and double factors.
Sean

 

[mhouse]

Before black belt, I had a technique called 24 Combination. It was Right over Left, cross block down, from the block, double cross knife to the neck. (your hands remain connected at the wrist the whole time.) After striking to the neck, you pulled your right hand to the right and your left hand to the left doing tiger claws across the face. There is more but that is the important part.

I would suggest of thinking about differnet thing that can happen from an x-block / strike. For example...an open handed x-stike to the neck, grab the gi/shirt with your arms in an x-block. Pull with the right, push with the left.

As for references, there is a section in the beginning of Professor Cerio's Circle of the Tiger that attacks to a corner that might be informative. It's a black belt form in our style, but it might be in one of his books.

I don't know much about Parker's Kenpo, but there are so many books out there that some of them must cover the diagonals of the kenpo wheel.

Good luck. When you are done, would you mind sharing your form with us?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

We use the term open ended triangle, and don't forget your front and rear cross overs and double factors.
Sean

Sean thank you! I've never even heard that term before open ended triangle...I like it...is that term used for any reason other than the obvious...do you use it to replace the term x-block?

as for the front and rear crossovers I had my private lesson today and was discussing with my instructor what he thought the most powerful kick was...and he said the cross over back kick (not meant to cause a stir here though)...which got me thinking about my form...so yes I'm going to try and think about ways to add cross overs when fitting.

What do do mean by double factors? Are you familiar with the move Back Breaker? Do you mean like using double backfists in an open ended triangle in a move like that striking across the face and clavicles (as you remove your supporting leg) backfists down for the takedown.

Can you please give me an example of what you mean by this?

 

[Blindside]

Think about the angle of the attack toward you, not only on the horizontal plane, but also on the vertical. Many weapon attacks come in at downward 45 degree angles, a shovel hook might come in at an upward 45 degree angle, etc.

Also, a universal block would be a good example of an "x-block" on the horizontal plane.

A double-factor would be a double block such as an right inward, left outward block. Think of the advanced applications of that motion, rather than just as blocks/parries.

Good luck, sounds like an interesting mental (and physical!)exercise.

Lamont

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Before black belt, I had a technique called 24 Combination. It was Right over Left, cross block down, from the block, double cross knife to the neck. (your hands remain connected at the wrist the whole time.) After striking to the neck, you pulled your right hand to the right and your left hand to the left doing tiger claws across the face. There is more but that is the important part.

I would suggest of thinking about differnet thing that can happen from an x-block / strike. For example...an open handed x-stike to the neck, grab the gi/shirt with your arms in an x-block. Pull with the right, push with the left.

As for references, there is a section in the beginning of Professor Cerio's Circle of the Tiger that attacks to a corner that might be informative. It's a black belt form in our style, but it might be in one of his books.

I don't know much about Parker's Kenpo, but there are so many books out there that some of them must cover the diagonals of the kenpo wheel.

Good luck. When you are done, would you mind sharing your form with us?

First I really appreciate you reply!

In the move 24 Combination what is the attack? I have a similar Kenpo move where you push pull rip back on the face arm crossed of course but only one does the ripping. I'll see if two work in anywhere...cool!

Professor Cerio's Circle of Tiger - first what art is it from? (not that it matters I think you learn from being open to all possibilities) and is that a book?

As for sharing the form it's been the hardest thing I've had to do for this bloody test and I've picked it up and put it down a dozen times and all the old stuff I created looks so immature I ripped it apart and I'm reworking it...hopefully I'd want to share it. I'm proud of my thesis, but so far this is making me nutz!!! Let's see how it turns out first. If it's at least good I'd be more than happy to share...Ok? The other thing is, we're not required to write it out...I'd have to do that for you probably after the test is over.

So my advice to all of you who need a personal form...get going before it gets you:jaws: !!!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean thank you! I've never even heard that term before open ended triangle...I like it...is that term used for any reason other than the obvious...do you use it to replace the term x-block?

as for the front and rear crossovers I had my private lesson today and was discussing with my instructor what he thought the most powerful kick was...and he said the cross over back kick (not meant to cause a stir here though)...which got me thinking about my form...so yes I'm going to try and think about ways to add cross overs when fitting.

What do do mean by double factors? Are you familiar with the move Back Breaker? Do you mean like using double backfists in an open ended triangle in a move like that striking across the face and clavicles (as you remove your supporting leg) backfists down for the takedown.

Can you please give me an example of what you mean by this?

Double factor can make even short form one into an x-block extravaganza, and for the most part we call that block a universal block. And double factor is more four dimensional.
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Think about the angle of the attack toward you, not only on the horizontal plane, but also on the vertical. Many weapon attacks come in at downward 45 degree angles, a shovel hook might come in at an upward 45 degree angle, etc.

Also, a universal block would be a good example of an "x-block" on the horizontal plane.

A double-factor would be a double block such as an right inward, left outward block. Think of the advanced applications of that motion, rather than just as blocks/parries.

Good luck, sounds like an interesting mental (and physical!)exercise.

Lamont

Lamont thanks!

I had a friend suggest the universal block but I wasn't able to see it as an X-block until now. I hadn't been thinking of it as being an x on a horizontal plane. That's helpful. I have a few techniques with universal blocks. I'll think about those.

The double factor is an interesting thought...but I'm not sure - is a universal block an example of this or is it different? What applications would there be for a right inward paired with a left outward block...does this limit your striking ability and leave you open? I feel like your arms might get tied up in each other. Can you give an example?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Double factor can make even short form one into an x-block extravaganza, and for the most part we call that block a universal block. And double factor is more four dimensional.
Sean

Ok I really can't relate to the fourth dimension...it's just hard to see for me. But this I can see - sometimes we overlook the simple basic stuff like SHORT I ....I'm thinking of it right now...especially the turns toward 9:00 and the slicing down blocks you are so right now I'm inspired...those basic moves could be a great way to transition for me...there are a couple of places in the form where I need to be in a different place on the clock to do what I have planned...Thanks for this thought!!!!

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I am refining my personal black belt form. It is based on the x in self defense (Kenpo specifically) with attacks coming from points on the 10-4 by 8-2 lines. I'm starting with basic x-blocks and moving on to the most advanced applications taken from Kenpo techniques. I am incorporating any movement in which the arms cross for self defense such as windmill blocks, parries and orbits. I'm wondering if anyone has any information, thoughts or ideas, or knows of any articles on this subject - applications, anything on the universal pattern dealing with the cross or the x, anything.Thanks

Long Form 4 is based on this premise already.

DarK LorD

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Long Form 4 is based on this premise already.

DarK LorD

I see a lot in the beginning of Long Form IV especially in Destructive Kneel, I didn't use that technique for the reason that it looked too much like long 4, but I didn't know all of Long 4 was based on that. I have a personal reason for choosing this theme. I guess eventually nothing is completely original. I'll go over Long Form IV and look for other things I might be able to apply. I am using mostly pieces of techniques, so some of it I might find very useful. Thanks so much for pointing that out! I'll definitely give it more thought!:ultracool

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ok I really can't relate to the fourth dimension...it's just hard to see for me. But this I can see - sometimes we overlook the simple basic stuff like SHORT I ....I'm thinking of it right now...especially the turns toward 9:00 and the slicing down blocks you are so right now I'm inspired...those basic moves could be a great way to transition for me...there are a couple of places in the form where I need to be in a different place on the clock to do what I have planned...Thanks for this thought!!!!

what I mean by four dimensional is that with a double factor one block precceeds the other as a check and a guide line for the next move and do not create an solid x block. Think writing in cursive as opposed to printing.
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

what I mean by four dimensional is that with a double factor one block precceeds the other as a check and a guide line for the next move and do not create an solid x block. Think writing in cursive as opposed to printing.
Sean

Great Sean!....that's the visualization I needed. That is the Kenpo I know - coming in with positional checks. So just to clarify, if I'm getting it all - you'd consider this type of movement to be an x-block of a different color or on a different plane, or level?

 

[Doc]

Just as a thought, there are no "X" or crossblocks in American kenpo as I know it. Usually when these type "so-called" blocks are employed, they consists of two separate mechanisms employed separately with wholly different functions that ultimately end up in what is generally known as an "X" configuration but in reality are not. They "X" designation is a superficial understanding of a rather complex mechanism.

 

[Les]

It is based on the x in self defense (Kenpo specifically) with attacks coming from points on the 10-4 by 8-2 lines.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the x angles are actually 10.30, 4.30, 7.30 and 1.30. The 10-4 by 8-2 lines will not give you true diagonals.

Les

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Just as a thought, there are no "X" or crossblocks in American kenpo as I know it. Usually when these type "so-called" blocks are employed, they consists of two separate mechanisms employed separately with wholly different functions that ultimately end up in what is generally known as an "X" configuration but in reality are not. They "X" designation is a superficial understanding of a rather complex mechanism.

Most interesting...it may be a matter of semantics, but it doesn't sound that way. Can you describe an example of it being much more complex? I'd really like to understand more about your thoughts on this.

I can think of at least four techniques off the top of my head where you begin by blocking a kick or a club, or a knife attack in this "configuration". What happens directly after the initial block may vary (trap and pull in, regrabbing the club, redirecting the knife, and choking the throat in a push pull, but the very first step really does not seem so complex.

If you care to please elaborate. Thank you.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the x angles are actually 10.30, 4.30, 7.30 and 1.30. The 10-4 by 8-2 lines will not give you true diagonals.

Les

That's good advice I'll shift my orientation just a bit. ...and now I'll go look up the word pedantic but i get your drift. Thanks!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Just as a thought, there are no "X" or crossblocks in American kenpo as I know it. Usually when these type "so-called" blocks are employed, they consists of two separate mechanisms employed separately with wholly different functions that ultimately end up in what is generally known as an "X" configuration but in reality are not. They "X" designation is a superficial understanding of a rather complex mechanism.

Doc,

I just found something that might make this a little clearer. You seem to know Kenpo very well. I'll assume you've read Infinit Insights...if you have not I'll copy the page for you. In volume five, Ed Parker describes the technique Obstructing the Storm (over head club attack page 164) He refers to the initial block at the opponents wrist as an "upward cross block" - what my instructor refers to as an x-block.

Please I'd like to know what you think Ed Parker intended here.

 

[Doc]

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the x angles are actually 10.30, 4.30, 7.30 and 1.30. The 10-4 by 8-2 lines will not give you true diagonals.

Les

Call it what you will, you are indeed correct.

 

[mhouse]

Sorry it's taken so long to reply to your earlier question.

The kempo style I study is derived from Karenzempo, Cerio's Kenpo among other sources. So, Circle of the Tiger is a form from Nick Cerio's Kenpo.

As for 24 combination, the attack is usually practiced as a punch. The first block smothers the punch and as a result makes the attacker lean forward, usually exposing their neck as they look up.

There are some other interesting points about the x-block in the style I study. It's used in all of our "kata" forms during the salutaion. (I have forms named 1 kata, 2 kata, etc.) My Sensei was giving us some background on the opening x-block. It's derived from a block where you would have both fists closed, and place the right directly on top of the left. (So that the palm of your right hand is facing the back of your left hand) You would then thrust this "double fist" (for lack of a better term) up and out. It's meant to be a defense against a hammer fist. The block will either hit the arm just above or just below the elbow. According the my instuctor, its from the polynesian background of the kempo arts as opposed to the chinese influences.

Now, I mention this to give you some ideas about the x-block and possible variations. I haven't worked with it enough to explore the possibilities or its effectiveness for me and my classmates.