the system?

J

jkdhit

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has anyone ever heard of "the system"? it's a russian martial arts system, i heard about it from my college in freshmen year at the hand-to-hand combat club because that's what they taught.

the 2 instructors were being a bit cocky and asking me to demonstrate roundhouse kicks and comparing it with roundhouse kicks in the system which was actually just a spin kick. i actually took down the main instructor when he had asked for a quick spar - he caught me in a wrist lock when i gave him a cross punch but i countered it with a headlock using my legs. he told me i was too flexible for him and had me spar the other instructor who was only a couple of years older than me at the time. i gave him a high roundhouse to the head but he slipped under it put me in a full nelson and wrapped his legs around my waist. i threw my back to the floor to loosen his grip, he put his legs around my head in a headlock and i flipped backwards out of the lock, stomped him in the stomach with my hip, and proceeded to put him in a leg lock.

after that, they tried to convince me to join their school because the head instructor always taught and is supposed to be among the best of all the instructors in the entire system. they also told me that the system is somewhat similar to jkd which i didn't believe at all. they also tried to convince me to check out the martial arts site at www.russianmartialart.com

so i ended up checking out the site and ordered a few of the videos which were quite expensive. when i saw the videos, i thought they were just hilarious because the movements used are basically mechanical movements programmed into your head for certain situations. i also saw the main instructor in the video who's a very heavy set man.. in all the videos the 2 instructors seem very cocky and perform impractical movements in slow motion. never do they show anything in actual speed.

what i also thought was funny was that one of the instructors in the video made claims about how he would never use "the system" in sparring because of how dangerous it would be on the opponent that's why he never competes in competitions. but also he claimed that he outruns machine guns, etc etc

i just thought i'd share my insights and see if anyone else had seen the videos or practiced "the system"


here are some links to videos..

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/1gn.mpg

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/strikes.wmv

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/1Defense%20ag.%20Wep.wmv

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/1systema%20HH%20to%20HH.wmv
 

Bester

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Well, you found the right forum.
Now, try reading it.
You'll notice an easy dozen people here train it, and even teach it.
 
OP
J

jkdhit

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since this thread is up, maybe some people can answer some of my questions..

has anyone who practices it or teaches it.. actually used it in real life situations or sparring? i just find it very hard to believe some of the techniques taught in video such as the trinity punch, trinity kick, iron neck, etc etc
 

MattW

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In regards to the sparring issue:
The System is not meant to be a competitive, ring martial art. Nor is meant to be used in point sparring. It is a system of survival and practicality (even though you may disagree).

In regards to real life:
I have not been in any situation where I have needed it, but certain things become engrained in you, IE the relaxation, the types of movement, etc. There is also the aspect of conflict resolution prior to the conflict, which I have actually employed. Being able to keep the relaxed mindset allows you to stop a conflict from progressing to the point of actually needing it. I do, however, know quite a few people that have survived instances that probably would have otherwise killed them. Its not my place to share those stories though.

Trinity striking is actually a very interesting and practical application. Trinity strikes generally happen out of natural relaxed movements. Take for example punching someone in the stomach. That persons natural reaction is to fold/bend over. When someone bends over, their head comes forward. While the arm is still extended, all it takes is one rotation of the elbow to change trajectories and strike that person under the chin (with the elbow). And again, your arm can continue to follow natural rotations to add in more strikes. As far as trinity kicks go, in my experience, they have generally been used in the sense of striking the front leg with a knee while walking through and continuing the knee into a kick towards the back leg, usually dropping the person. They are quick, natural, continuous movements. I'm not sure what you mean by iron neck, unless you're referring to a practice similar to the Qigong practice... and I've not seen a practice like that in Systema. Does not mean they don't exist though.

My word may not mean much, but the system is, as I've seen it from my instructor, the most practical martial art around. Keep going to the class, even just for fun. It may be the instructor you've encountered that's not quite up to par, but I'm in no place to judge considering I have no idea who he is. As far as The System being similar to JKD... I would disagree, but that's just me. They may have similar principles and the like, but from what I've seen, they're very different.
 

Klondike93

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the movements used are basically mechanical movements programmed into your head for certain situations.

I don't know what you were looking at here, but the system is not full of pre-programed responses to certain situations. What your taught is that through breathing, relaxation, movement and form you do the work required for the situation at hand. Now that could be a knife attack, grabs, punches, kicks whatever, the work is still the same. One the system is not is a sport, there are no protective gloves, cups, mouth guards so the sparring is a bit different. The reasond for slowing down the movement are many, to feel how your body want's to move, how the attackers moving, etc... It is a good thing to go fast every now and then to feel what it's like and see how the movement happens, but it usually comes with a price of some pain.

they also told me that the system is somewhat similar to jkd which i didn't believe at all

your correct, it's not anything like JKD or any other Asian art for that matter.


they also tried to convince me to check out the martial arts site at www.russianmartialart.com

you should check out the forums, there are quite a few instructors that post there that can answer any questions you have.

in all the videos the 2 instructors seem very cocky and perform impractical movements in slow motion

I have yet to run into any instructor that's appeared cocky, arrogant or thinking their better than everybody else. That's just one character you don't find in the system.

I'm sure there are a few that will see this and respond much better than I can, but if your ever near a seminar with Vladimir, attend it. Also be sure to ask him if it's practical or "really" works, it saved his skin in combat for 10 years.


:supcool:
 

Jackal

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Doesn't look like the two "instructors" you ran into knew what the hell they were doing or what they were talking about.

I'd have liked to see that match.

Spin kicks, and wrist locks and full nelsons...oh my.

Not The System whatever it was.

As for the hilarious videos; there's some pretty good stuff in there if you know what you're looking at. If not, I'm glad they made you smile, at least.

They make me smile too. :)
 

Franc0

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All of the Systema instructors I've met and trained with have been nothing but very nice and courteous, along with being very good martial artists.

Franco
 

MattW

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Jackal, I'm glad you said it (about the instructors).
Something struck me a little odd about the full nelson thing and spin kicks. *shrugs*
 

Mark Jakabcsin

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JKDHIT,
I recommend you check the list of instrucors on Vladimir's web-site to see if the guys you met are listed, like Jessie said your story seems a little odd. You also might want to add the city/state to your profile, there are many events and training groups around the country that aren't listed or are hard to find. By posting your general location myself and others can help point you towards some training you might not otherwise know was around. Take care and best of luck.

Mark J.
 

SonnyPuzikas

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Errr... Are you a wanna-be fight choreographer for C rate wanna-be amateur super action movie outfit?
Or you're just so damn good? Kicked "one of the top Systema instructors" ***, as a bonus kicked other ones too...
And 2 instructors in the videos (that could be Vladimir and Mikhail, I'm guessing) are cocky... If they are cocky, your attitude, boychik, borders on being an A-hole...
Now- don't choke in your anger at my attitude. Nothing personal.
 

Mark Jakabcsin

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SonnyPuzikas said:
Errr... And 2 instructors in the videos (that could be Vladimir and Mikhail, I'm guessing) are cocky... If they are cocky, your attitude, boychik, borders on being an A-hole...
Now- don't choke in your anger at my attitude. Nothing personal.

Sonny,
LOL. I was thinking the same but when I wrote my post I just couldn't find the words, so I let it slide. Thanks for finding appropriate words (with more color than I could ever muster).

MJ
 

arnisador

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Klondike93 said:
sounds like the poser is just a troll though
I thought the same. In fairness, though, I have to say...a response like this:

I have yet to run into any instructor that's appeared cocky, arrogant or thinking their better than everybody else. That's just one character you don't find in the system.
...is also a bit hard to swallow. Cockiness and arrogance won't be found among Systema instructors because of the fact that their system is such that that type of 'character' won't be found? No offense, but...isn't that something of a cocky and arrogant attitude? Every other art I'm familiar with has its share of bozos. Every other organized group--I'm thinking here of clergy of various faiths--has its share among them, despite what their 'system' says.
 
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jkdhit

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i didnt say i beat up two top instructors.. i just said 2 instructors

i stopped by one school in ny and the instructor there was very nice and modest.
 

Franc0

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arnisador said:
Every other art I'm familiar with has its share of bozos. Every other organized group--I'm thinking here of clergy of various faiths--has its share among them, despite what their 'system' says.

Yep, I agree. Every art, organisation or group, will have it's share of A-Holes.
Even though I have yet to meet one in Systema so far, I'm sure there's one out there. I do know there are former associates that are looked upon in a very negative light by some in Systema. When it comes to the martial arts in general, every bunch has it's bad apples, and theirs lot's o' bunches out there.

Franco
 

SonnyPuzikas

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ALL of us have much to improve about the way we are. Most instructors and practitioners in Systema do it by working- practicing what is being preached. Few are more focused on preaching alone.
 

milosmalic

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jkdhit said:
has anyone who practices it or teaches it.. actually used it in real life situations or sparring?
Yes, yes, also know people who do and did, also have police officers and executives training with us, military people as well.

jkdhit said:
i just find it very hard to believe some of the techniques taught in video such as the trinity punch, trinity kick, iron neck, etc etc
OK :)

When it comes to slow practicing, in order to improve timing and develop creativity that is the only way. One thing I consider very wise in this art is that concentration on timing development, because timing is the ONLY attribute that can be enhanced while aging. All other attributes like reflex, strength, endurance and hormone rush are shutting down with years.

Of course slow work is not the "combat" application of Systema. Ask for the full speed, and you will get it :). Soon I will make some clips of full speed and post the links here. Slow work is the main tool of the learning process.

I hope that you aren't really a troll, but sencerely interested in Systema and intrigued by somebody you saw and consider not competent.
 

Dan G

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Jkdhit might be trolling, but I don't think so. Either way it seems a really good opportunity to give people (like me) more info on the art.

I am not from a Systema background, I have done only one session, have seen one Vasiliev vid, and have also heard some excellent word of mouth about a seminar Martin Wheeler did for kenpoists in Boston.

The thing is Systema doesn't fit the conventional expectation of a Martial Art, whatever that might be, even for someone familiar with "non traditional" approaches, so it shouldn't be surprising if people sometimes raise annoying questions or seemingly disrespectful doubts.

The word of mouth I had on the System was positive, but I was still pretty sceptical when I went along to try a class.

I have to say I was really impressed with the instructor, the man had "something", and it was effective and impressive, but I can't really begin to describe it as the type and quality of motion is different to anything I have seen before.

I didn't think the students had that "something" yet, but they were definitely learning useful stuff in an interesting way. To me content and method of training looked like being able to deliver, at the very minimum, students with a usefully improved level of practical personal self defence skills, and I liked it.

There were things I found a little odd, like the fact that a lot of students choose to wear camo trousers. Not a problem for me, but I could see it putting off a lot of people that could most gain from the training; women and seniors in particular.

I still have a few questions. I believe the system is of value to a complete beginner as it seems to deliver a useful set of mental skills and useable reactions. I do wonder how many people are able to progress to a first class level of skill. It struck me that those that truly excel largely have either an extreme LEO or military background, and/or a level of excellence in a previous art... basically how well does it replicate? Particularly the knife and gun defence work?
This is absolutely not meant in disrespect of the System, I simply haven't seen enough first-hand, and it is a question I still don't know the answer to.

Jkdhit - the people you sparred with seem like decent folk at the very least, so the invitation to visit the instructor might be worth taking up. As for the vids, don't be put off by the slow motion, or the seeming impracticality of the technique until you have a chance to train with someone good first hand. Like you I have a few doubts still (I believe Vasiliev can do it, but still wonder how well it would work for someone else). Luckily I am in a location where I can satisfy my curiosity fairly easily.

I have no intention whatsoever of leaving the art I already train in, but if I can fit in any cross-training the System is right up there at the top of the list of horizons to be broadened. As Mikhail Ryabko is visiting the UK in September I'll hopefully get the opportunity to see the top man in action too!

Respectfully,

Dan
 

jellyman

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How do newbies do?

Well, there are no short cuts to high level skill, and what is high level depends on who you ask but...

I can tell you that at least 2 guys have trained in a sattelite club in Hamilton Ontario (ie not with Vlad, but with students of same) for about a year, neither with any training to speak of (maybe a year in this or that when they were kids).

Both left after the year and travelled, where they ran into MA instructors from other styles, who liked what they saw these guys do to the extent they traded free lessons with these guys.

Are these guys high level by systema standards? Not really. But they can hold their own outside with serious MAists.

Like anything, it's about what you put into it too.
 

Dan G

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jellyman said:
How do newbies do?

Well, there are no short cuts to high level skill, and what is high level depends on who you ask but...

I can tell you that at least 2 guys have trained in a sattelite club in Hamilton Ontario (ie not with Vlad, but with students of same) for about a year, neither with any training to speak of (maybe a year in this or that when they were kids).

Both left after the year and travelled, where they ran into MA instructors from other styles, who liked what they saw these guys do to the extent they traded free lessons with these guys.

Are these guys high level by systema standards? Not really. But they can hold their own outside with serious MAists.

Like anything, it's about what you put into it too.
Thanks for your reply. I guess my question is a hard one to answer as so much does depend on individual effort and ability.

For the two students to be able to represent their art meaningfully after only a year or so of training speaks very well of their training efforts, their instructor, and Systema's teaching method.

All sounds pretty positive!

Respectfully,

Dan
 

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