the system?

[Loki]

I'd like to get this thread back on track (or at least where I think "back on track" is). A few questions I'd like to pose:

What are the main characteristics of Systema?
Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?

How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?

How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?

What does it take to qualify as an instructor?

What's the idea behind the military theme?

What makes Systema effective/efficient?

Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?

Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?

 

[Marginal]

http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page6.html

Lotsa articles.

 

[RachelK]

Loki,

There is so much information available on Systema, most especially on the official North American site http://www.russianmartialart.com Why not just go read it rather than asking us to copy and paste it all here for you? It's not hard to find information about Systema.

Maybe all your questions would not be answered by reading the official site, though I think your list would be trimmed down considerably if you did a little background research. The main characteristics are readily available on the site. The 120-pound woman question is too speculative. No-one can give you a decisive answer about that one. It is possible, yes, but no guarantees. We can't predict the future. Systema is aimed at practicality. It is used for Russian military operations, and also used by some North American law enforcement (though not too many, it's not widely known). It is for self-defense. Yet it is also a way of life. There are no belts, so there is no equivalent of black belt. Everyone progresses at a different pace. It takes as long as it takes to become proficient. To qualify as an instructor, you must be certified by our international director Vladimir Vasiliev or by his teacher Mikhail Ryabko, who resides in Russia. I believe, to become certified, you must go to Vlad's school in Toronto and train with him for about two weeks. That is just the end of the qualification process; it does not mean it takes only two weeks to qualify. There is more information about this on the official site. There is no military theme. It is a military combat system. This is not a theme; Systema is a living martial art that is used by Russian Special Forces and other military personnel. What makes it effective and efficient? You'd have to try it to find out. But again I refer you to the official site. About the cold, detached, and/or cocky demonstrators. I am not sure where you picked that up. We often smile, laugh, even joke around while training. Can you provide an example of cold, detached, or cocky demonstrators? There is a certain amount of professional coolness suggested. No mean faces, yelling, or anything that will telegraph intent. I have never seen this manifest as coldness but I haven't trained with every Systema student in the world.

We shake hands, that is an act of mutual respect. We do not bow because bowing is not part of the Systema tradition. I think one person stated it best, though I cannot remember who: "Respect is given as it is earned." We respect each other and this is demonstrated by the way we interact with each other; bowing doesn't happen to be part of the way we express this respect.

Check the official site if you are interested and then if you have additional questions, I am sure that there will be plenty of more knowledgabel people willing to answer.

Best wishes,
Rachel

 

[Loki]

Loki,

There is so much information available on Systema, most especially on the official North American site http://www.russianmartialart.com Why not just go read it rather than asking us to copy and paste it all here for you? It's not hard to find information about Systema.

Because it doesn't contain some of the info I need, and combing through it rather than having a few knowledgable folks throw in a tidbit of information is easier. When someone posts on KM, I don't redirect to www.kravmaga.com, I write a post, the length of which depends on my patience.

I'll sharpen my previous post and address what you wrote tomorrow, when it's not 1 AM. Stay tuned.

 

[Ironman]

Because it doesn't contain some of the info I need, and combing through it rather than having a few knowledgable folks throw in a tidbit of information is easier. When someone posts on KM, I don't redirect to www.kravmaga.com, I write a post, the length of which depends on my patience.

I'll sharpen my previous post and address what you wrote tomorrow, when it's not 1 AM. Stay tuned.

i agree with your point about posting knowlegeable info rather than jus redirection but i believe Rachel has give you a satisfactory answer, no? Moreover, many of the questions you ask have been discussed dozens and dozens of times and i would very much doubt people like to repeat themselves. Best thing to do is read up on some articles regarding the art and then ask specific questions (what is a solar plexuses punch? what is the ground work like? Are the punches really that painfull (yes) and who shot JFK?), here is a simple site that has a very nice set of articles and introductions (the sight is by Mark Hord, btw):
http://www.geocities.com/presuppositionalist/Systema/

 

[Klondike93]

What are the main characteristics of Systema?

It's very soft, but very hard, it's what you need at the time in other words. Breathing and relaxing take an important role in Systema, but so do form and movement.

Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?

Since it's not based on force I would say sure why not.

How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?

Used by the military so I would think so. Practical, yes.

How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?

With no tests or belts it would be up to the individual I suppose. I know being a black belt
does not insure abilty with in the particular art. Some are promoted no matter how bad, others
are exceptional martial artists.

What does it take to qualify as an instructor?

Vlad or Mikhail saying your
qualified to be an instructor. Those are the only 2 individuals that issue instructor certificates.

What's the idea behind the military theme?

It's a military based system, art.

What makes Systema effective/efficient?

Simplicity IMO. Keep It Simple Stupid works, no sense fighting yourself and an opponent.

Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?

I've never noticed anyone being cold or detached, could you elaborate? Vlad and Mikhail both say to love your opponent, don't be angry
it causes too much tension.

Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?

The occasional hug or handshake, but no bowing.

These answers are from my understanding of The System and others may be different.
:supcool:

 

[milosmalic]

Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?

Depends which woman, which man, circumstances. This is trick question, right? I can't be sure that 120 pound man can take down 125 pound man with or without any martial art.

Precise answer would be: "Yes, because there are no rules, no restrictions, and everybody is free to utilize own attributes rather than reproduce canonic technique".

How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?

Very much. Yes.

How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?

For man A it might be 2 years, and for man B 20 won't be enough. But there is no way to obtain a belt-like rank by reproducing moves.

What does it take to qualify as an instructor?

So far I know 2 ways. The first one is to be reckognized by V.V. or M.R. The second way is that people keep asking you to teach them Systema.

I must say that I saw (video footage) of some lousy "certifieds" and some very good "not formally certified" instructors.

What's the idea behind the military theme?

Living masters are/were military personnel. One period of Systema history is tightly connected to russian special operation units, Specnaz.

What makes Systema effective/efficient?

I'll try to describe in short. Systema contains elements of martial arts I had chance to learn before. As an extension to that, this art has completely different approach to teaching/learning. Creativity, fluidity, experimenting, discovering by following principles rather than repeating "trade mark moves"... After some time, Systema becomes your personal custom tailored Systema, adjusted to your height, weight, arm lenght, reflexes...

Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?

They are calm not cold. In Systema there is annother approach to focus and "paying attention" than in most commong MA's.

Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?

There are no rituals whatsoever. Man can bow, shake hands, smile politely, tap friends sholder, hug, laugh, make eyecontact or do nothing. It is metter of his own personality and culture. I like to shake hands and smile.

 

[Jackal]

There are no rituals whatsoever. Man can bow, shake hands, smile politely, tap friends sholder, hug, laugh, make eyecontact or do nothing. It is metter of his own personality and culture. I like to shake hands and smile.

That was great. Thanks.
I have nothing to add; I was just moved to reply.

 

[Loki]

Sorry for the late response, it's been a busy week.

Despite what some may think, I have looked into Systema, and still am. I'm not asking these questions to belittle the style, I want to know what I'm watching because I don't understand it. I've downloaded all the videos I could get, watched each one several times, and read a bunch of articles. I got some answers, but not all.

I'll try to sharpen the questions I still have:

What are the main characteristics of Systema?

What sets Systema apart from other styles? Creativity, improvisation, adjustability and other general adjectives can apply to any martial art. How does Systema innovate? What would a short summary of Systema look like?

Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?

Bad question. I'll just say I'd be much more impressed to see a smaller guy (or woman) take down a musclebound man and not vice versa as I do see on videos. Vlad can definitely move, and I wouldn't want to try him myself, but I have a hard time seeing a person with much less experience (but not inexperienced) succeeding in doing the defenses he does.

How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?

A military system isn't automatically street-effective. Keep in mind that soldiers have rifles, keeping most of their combat ranged. Even special ops that do need hand-to-hand combat usually learn curriculum that's very different from what civilians learn. Krav Maga also started off military.

How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?

Got the answer I was looking for.

What does it take to qualify as an instructor?

Does this mean I can theoretically train for two months with Vlad, he'll like what he sees because I have a lot of experience in martial arts and catch on to Systema fast, and be certified an instructor?

What's the idea behind the military theme?

What military theme? Camouflage pants, military T-shirts ads on the site, dog tags, Spetsnaz logo patch... I see plenty a connection. I assume most people who train is Systema aren't Spetsnaz operatives or even members of the military. Why the intimate connection? I ask because my style also originated in the military.

What makes Systema effective/efficient?

Still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to this one. This relates to the main characteristics issue. Simplicity? It seems this isn't a universally agreed-upon term. A video I saw of defending against a stick shows the defender moving towards the attacker and away from the stick and guiding him slowly to the floor. I find it simpler to defend while bursting towards him and attacking, take control of the weapon, beat him senseless and take the weapon. My question stands.

Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?

There were several cases where I saw the person giving the example showing several signs of disinterest in his attackers: constant scratching of the nose, not looking at the opponent at all, keeping the hands down, playing with an attacker once having him in a lock, leaving the weapon in the attacker's hand, turning the back to an armed opponent(??). I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance.

Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?

Question answered.

One more thing I see is that it seems the attacker isn't really dedicated to his attack. For contrast, see Kevin and Brian's Kenpo clips in the Video Library.

 

[Ironman]

awright let me have a shot at some of your questions (caution: opinions not typical and may vary according to individuals :ultracool ):


"Vlad can definitely move, and I wouldn't want to try him myself, but I have a hard time seeing a person with much less experience (but not inexperienced) succeeding in doing the defenses he does."

.this is true, thats why no one does the exact same defenses as everyone elese. Since its not technique based system, imitation is not useful nor sucessful. This is aparent in the many videos out there, had i not been told the Systema MR does looks no where the same to the stuff done by Vlad nor Paul nor Sonny nor Brian...you get the point.

"Still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to this one. This relates to the main characteristics issue. Simplicity? It seems this isn't a universally agreed-upon term. A video I saw of defending against a stick shows the defender moving towards the attacker and away from the stick and guiding him slowly to the floor. I find it simpler to defend while bursting towards him and attacking, take control of the weapon, beat him senseless and take the weapon. My question stands."

.again the art is NOT based on technique, so simple to you might be complex to me, no matter what the physical aspect of it might be.

"There were several cases where I saw the person giving the example showing several signs of disinterest in his attackers: constant scratching of the nose, not looking at the opponent at all, keeping the hands down, playing with an attacker once having him in a lock, leaving the weapon in the attacker's hand, turning the back to an armed opponent(??). I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance."

. The system teaches people NOT to fixate on the target but keep a "Soft focus", this is interpretted differenetly by many people but if it keeps you relaxed and soft then you can scratch anyware :asian: . As for keeping the hands the down...well, do you walk around with your hands up? Its a reality System and people realistically don't walk around with their hands up (i know a few people that do but they have serious issues) ready to fight or protect their face or whatever. "I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance." well you could never really know that, lessen the person has told you, watch Vlad's face when he is "working" i almost always see a smile or a relaxed face, yet the job gets done.

"Despite what some may think, I have looked into Systema, and still am. I'm not asking these questions to belittle the style, I want to know what I'm watching because I don't understand it. I've downloaded all the videos I could get, watched each one several times, and read a bunch of articles. I got some answers, but not all."

. it helps to get a "feel" for it, so if there is a seminar or a practioner near by go check it out (i myself had the opportunity to try Krav Maga, a while back).

:uhyeah: hope i have helped...like i said i will aswer some of the question but i will leave the rest to the more experienced practioners.

 

[Loki]

.this is true, thats why no one does the exact same defenses as everyone elese. Since its not technique based system, imitation is not useful nor sucessful. This is aparent in the many videos out there, had i not been told the Systema MR does looks no where the same to the stuff done by Vlad nor Paul nor Sonny nor Brian...you get the point.

If you're not supposed to imitate Vlad's moves, how does it work? While obviously the style has to fit your build and abilities, is there no similarity between one person's defense against an attack and another person's defense against the same attack?

.again the art is NOT based on technique, so simple to you might be complex to me, no matter what the physical aspect of it might be.

If it's not based on technique then what is it based on?

The system teaches people NOT to fixate on the target but keep a "Soft focus", this is interpretted differenetly by many people but if it keeps you relaxed and soft then you can scratch anyware :asian: . As for keeping the hands the down...well, do you walk around with your hands up? Its a reality System and people realistically don't walk around with their hands up (i know a few people that do but they have serious issues) ready to fight or protect their face or whatever. "I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance." well you could never really know that, lessen the person has told you, watch Vlad's face when he is "working" i almost always see a smile or a relaxed face, yet the job gets done.

Admittedly walking around with your hands up is paralell to begging for hospitalization, keeping them down when attacked is leaving your upper body and head open. Looking at your attacker is being fixated, it's being alert. And you're correct in saying you can't really know unless you're told by the person doing the technique, but then again, there are other clues that can hint in the direction and allow to make an assessment. I haven't seen Vlad smile, but all I've seen are a few videos. Then again, no one else in the other videos has been smiling either.

it helps to get a "feel" for it, so if there is a seminar or a practioner near by go check it out (i myself had the opportunity to try Krav Maga, a while back).

I honestly wish I could attend a seminar, class or anything else, but such options are beyond me at the moment.

 

[jellyman]

"If it's not based on technique then what is it based on?"

principles and self-discovery

the instructor essenatially provides guidance and a critique.

There is the concept of good work and bad work. There is a good punch and a bad punch, for example. But there is no idea of 'These are THE good punches, the rest is bad'. Good and bad in this case, for example are determined by quality of effects, the payoff for energy expended, what happens to you if you miss.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Loki wrote: "If it's not based on technique then what is it based on?"

I believe this to be the crux of why you are having trouble understanding what is going on. Unfortunately words on a forum won't help very much. I have been training for a few years and I am constantly amazed that my understanding of what Systema is based on continues to grow and expand. Hence the only way to really understand Systema is to train, preferably with VV, MR, etc. However, as you said, that isn't an option for you at the moment so I will vainly try answer with words.

The shortest answer is that Systema is based on learning about humanity, yourself and others. That's it in a nut shell. While those that know, may smile and agree with that answer I am thinking it probably isn't all that helpful for you. I point this out to show the difficulty in discussing a topic that takes a long time to begin to understand.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to give a few simple examples: Grab your training partner, stand behind him placing both of your hands on the top of his head. He should stand straight up and resist as you press straight down. Notice how it takes very little energy for him to maintain his structure, heck he can probably carry your weight on top of his head. Now turn/tip his head slightly towards one side. Then press straight down while he trys to resist. Notice how he can't resist and it takes very little energy for you to push him down. This teaches each student the power of the skeleton and good form. Once our physical form is broken we lose an incredible amount of power for both delivering and receiving.

While this is a simple lesson it takes a long time to truly begin to grasp in the context of movement and life. Heck I saw this demo over 3 1/2 years ago and I'm still learning how to apply it and the strength found in proper physical form. Likewise learning how easy it is to move someone once their form is broken is key. Heck most people break their own form, meaning we only need to manipulate it. You see we are learning how the human body works on a very fundemental and basic level.

Let's stay with form in this post. Physical form is just one type of form contained in the human, there is also mental form and spiritual/emotional form. Learning how to maintain your form while learning to break anothers form is by and large what it's about. I know coming from more traditional arts this sounds odd or even fanciful but in reality it is exactly what the preconceived techniques are attempting to do.

Techniques require the matching of preprogrammed responses to preconceived situations. Problem is this matching process is slow and reality rarely matches exactly causing the student to improvise. We simply skip to improvise because we accept what 'is' instead of looking for what we want it to be.

When you see VV scratching his nose he is working on his attackers mental and/or emtional form. Your observation of his action is very telling, he was breaking your form by making you feel disrespected. Whether you realize it or not you were sympathizing with the attacker as you watched. This pulls the attackers attention away from his attack and into an emotional realm that is likely to lead to foolish movement, i.e. breaking the physical form, etc.

One more example, ask your buddy to punch you in the face, give him a mean look by squinting your eyes, sneering, etc. As he punches step back so you don't get creamed. Do this a few times then ask him what he felt inside, how difficult was it to throw the punch, what emotions did he feel. Then do the same thing but this time lean forward, give him a big toothy smile, leave yourself vulnerable, open your eyes and maybe tell him you love him right before he punches. Ham this up as much as you can. See what happens and ask him how he felt inside. Again it takes constant training to take this knowledge from this level to the context of real movement and life.

Systema is a series of drills that encourage each student learn about themselves on a physical, mental and emotional level. All three are connected, learning to see and accept those connections in ourselves is paramount. As we learn about ourselves we are also learning about others, we see our weaknesses in others, which we can exploit if desired. Or when the opportunity presents it self we can help others to see and accept their weakness and improve.

Please note that form is just one small part of the whole. I felt it was one of the eaiser ones to discuss on a basic level. There is so much more, so much more. As long as one stays open the learning never stops.

Take care,
Mark J.

 

[mscroggins]

Great post.

 

[Loki]

Great post Mark, I'm getting a better idea of what Systema is. But still, a few more questions.

How does biomechanical manipulation apply in high speed combat? I only see Vlad doing it. The rest are moving pretty slow, be they attacking or defending.

If the style depends on principles and self-discovery, how are these applied? When the instructor says "let's work on stick defenses", what happens? Not everyone is supposed to do what the instructor does, so what do they do?

I still disagree with the detachment idea. The illusion only lasts as long as you're not hit too badly, but what happens when someone lands a good strike? If you keep your hands down in order to maintain the superiority illusion, it's likely to fade faster.

 

[Jerry]

How does biomechanical manipulation apply in high speed combat? I only see Vlad doing it. The rest are moving pretty slow, be they attacking or defending.

Generally better than slowly. The exceptions seem to be when someone focuses only on the subtle. The problems I've seen at high speed with lower skill tend to come in controlling the damage to an opponent.

I still disagree with the detachment idea. The illusion only lasts as long as you're not hit too badly, but what happens when someone lands a good strike? If you keep your hands down in order to maintain the superiority illusion, it's likely to fade faster.

I'm not familiar with systema players keeping their hands down at that point... they've usually been too busy hitting / performaing manipulations. I've also not known them (combatively) to stand there and exchange blows like boxers (which is about the only circumstacne I can see your concern on hand position past the first swing).

That said, I'm very heavily influenced by other arts, and so will bow out of any more assertions about how pure systema players fight.

 

[rutherford]

I wouldn't be concerned about a Systema player's ability to take a heavy strike. From what I've seen, the ability to take strikes is pretty fundamental.

 

[Loki]

Generally better than slowly. The exceptions seem to be when someone focuses only on the subtle. The problems I've seen at high speed with lower skill tend to come in controlling the damage to an opponent.

Then why doesn't anyone do it in the videos? Obviously you're not supposed to inherently know, but it would obviously make for a much more impressive demonstration.

I'm not familiar with systema players keeping their hands down at that point... they've usually been too busy hitting / performaing manipulations. I've also not known them (combatively) to stand there and exchange blows like boxers (which is about the only circumstacne I can see your concern on hand position past the first swing).

Download some videos, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Assuming the first combo ends the fight, you're right. But if it doesn't? Multiple attackers?

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Then why doesn't anyone do it in the videos?

Simple, because you are watching the tinest portion of Systema possible, i.e. Internet video clips. It would be like looking at a single moon rock, without ever having seen the moon but trying to describe it in full detail and understand all there is to know about the moon, but much harder.

Download some videos, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Not to sound smarmy but this is the problem, you are downloading some videos and attempting to make generalizations about whole. Just like the three guys, the fence and the elephant. Your observations about only Vladimir doing this, that or the other thing are just ignorant. Since Vladimir is at the top of the food chain, of course most of the videos will contain him but that doesn't mean he's the only one that works a certain way. Although his work is much better than the rest. Likewise going fast isn't for learning it's for testing, what you know or what you think you know. Train slow, learn fast!

Assuming the first combo ends the fight, you're right. But if it doesn't? Multiple attackers?

Your comment here is the perfect illustration of what I am trying to point out. This weekend I attended a mass attack seminar in Charlotte, NC that Vladimir taught. Systema is rather unique, as far as I know, with regard to multiple attackers and mass attacks. Drills such as #1 is on his back, 5 to 6 guys surround him and kick him. #1 learns how to move and survive. At first #1 doesn't move simple relaxes and tries to get comfortable with being kicked. He learns to breathe and face his fear. Next drill has him moving but not counter attacking, simply moving and surviving as best he can. Finally, #1 will start to work against the kickers. But if he gets held up for even a fraction of a second someone will be kicking him in the head, kidney, etc. Similar drills standing up. Plus mass drills, 35-40 people all slugging it out in an every man for him self environment. Or a nice twist, put 6 or so bodies on the ground and let everyone slug it out with these obstacles. Also a good bout of mass wrestling is good for the heart. Note we also strike while wrestling on the ground.

The point is .......well to put it bluntly you simply can't watch a few video clips on the Internet and have even the slightest clue. Unfortunately your not in a position to experience first hand and that's a shame. While I can feel your heart felt interest many of your questions and obervastions are just so far of the mark it's not really worth answering. Without you making the effort to learn more first, you will simply see what you want to see. Example: your comments about Systema teaching to keep their hands down is just plan silly and wrong. Remember all that scratching you found to be cold? Where were the hands then?

Suggestion: If you are truly interested in learning a little more, without traveling, you will need to buy copies of Vladimir's DVD's. I suggest you start with the three newest ones since those are presented in a class-like format. Note, this won't answer all of your questions but it will give you a few grains of insight. Take care and best of luck.

Mark J.

 

[jellyman]

hen why doesn't anyone do it in the videos?

This one shows someone else doing it in a pretty vigourous manner. Lots of 'biomech'.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/strikes vv.wmv