The rough guy

[skribs]

This is kind of a vent, kind of a rant, maybe a bit of an "AITA" type of a post.

We've got a guy at my gym that goes pretty rough. Yesterday I finally had enough of his crap, tapped mid-roll and walked away. Told Professor I'm not rolling with him anymore. The final straw was when (after he had elbowed me in the face and kneed me in the back of the head), he said, "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."

Plenty of white belts beat me, but none of them regularly hit me in the head. But it did kind of stick with me that he's kind of correct. If I could smash him, I wouldn't be complaining.

But I don't think that's a flaw on my part, but maybe a part of how BJJ works. Each person in a roll needs to be controlled. Ideally, both folks will control themselves, so as not to injure their training partner. If you're not in control of yourself, then in order for it to be a safe roll, the other person needs to be in control of you. So yes, I did complain because I can't beat him. But I don't I'm the one with the problem.

 

[jks9199]

You're the only one telling him -- at least explicitly -- but are you the only one complaining at all? Do other students discuss him, or are they avoiding him, until someone gets stuck?

 

[skribs]

You're the only one telling him -- at least explicitly -- but are you the only one complaining at all? Do other students discuss him, or are they avoiding him, until someone gets stuck?

I am absolutely not. I remember one day, we were playing King of the Hill, where the King has to start seated, first to score a point wins. He kept getting yelled at by the coaches because he kept just standing up and landing a take-down. Coach kept yelling at him, "We all know you can wrestle, the goal of this exercise is to get better at guard."

There was this girl (around 21 I think), daughter of one of the purple belts. She'd only ever rolled with her Mom and Dad because she was nervous. But she was in line for KOTH, and she went against him. He slammed her pretty hard. She never rolled with another person outside the family, and quit a few weeks later. Pretty sure this was why.

Later that day, he was doing a normal roll with another guy (let's call him Alan) for comp prep. I was watching with another guy (let's call him Ben). He elbowed Alan in the face setting up a submission. Ben and I were talking about how much of a jerk this guy is. Later, Alan told me how upset he was about it. After my thing yesterday, Alan told me that a third guy (Charlie) had complained.

I've also had talks about him with the coaches before, and the coaches have said he's still trying to win every roll, he rolls like he has something to prove.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But I don't think that's a flaw on my part,

I do think that may be a flaw on your part.

One time on the wrestling mat, I used right hip throw on my opponent. My opponent's left free hand hook punched on my head. He didn't punch me very hard. He just shown me he could punch me if he wanted to.

Everybody know that punch is not allowed on wrestling mat. But since I didn't control my opponent's free arm (my right arm wrapped around his waist), that was my fault. After that day, I won't use waist wrap hip throw any more. I always used under hook hip throw instead. This way I could control my opponent's both arms, so he won't be able to punch me anymore.

I'm sure the stand-up wrestling experience can be mapped into the ground game experience as well. In ground game, if your opponent has free arm or free leg, that will be your fault. That means you don't have 100% control on your opponent.

In sport, you can't expect your opponent's free arm or free leg won't attack you even if the sport rule won't allow it.

 

[gyoja]

This is kind of a vent, kind of a rant, maybe a bit of an "AITA" type of a post.

We've got a guy at my gym that goes pretty rough. Yesterday I finally had enough of his crap, tapped mid-roll and walked away. Told Professor I'm not rolling with him anymore. The final straw was when (after he had elbowed me in the face and kneed me in the back of the head), he said, "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."

Plenty of white belts beat me, but none of them regularly hit me in the head. But it did kind of stick with me that he's kind of correct. If I could smash him, I wouldn't be complaining.

But I don't think that's a flaw on my part, but maybe a part of how BJJ works. Each person in a roll needs to be controlled. Ideally, both folks will control themselves, so as not to injure their training partner. If you're not in control of yourself, then in order for it to be a safe roll, the other person needs to be in control of you. So yes, I did complain because I can't beat him. But I don't I'm the one with the problem.

I’ve had a problem with this from a student in the beginners class. I had the students conducting light sparring so they could focus on using the techniques that they had learned. This student was bigger than the others, but hadn’t been able to gain any sort of proficiency in the learned techniques. He instead just used brute force to power through his opponents guard with hand strikes with no control. I had to gain control of the situation, and after a conversation, fixed the situation. Basically, the way I see it, it is the instructor’s responsibility to maintain control of the situation.

 

[skribs]

One time on the wrestling mat, I used right hip throw on my opponent. My opponent's left free hand hook punched on my head. He didn't punch me very hard. He just shown me he could punch me if he wanted to.

The roughness is 100% on him. He's hurt people, nearly knocked them out, and he doesn't care. As long as he gets the tap.

In this case, the elbow was because instead of placing his elbow on the mat near my shoulder, he just ripped his elbow tight as hard as he could. Same thing with the knee to the back of the head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The roughness is 100% on him.

Can your opponent do that to you if you can control him properly in ground game?

I assume the purpose of the ground game training is to have 100% control your opponent on the ground.

 

[skribs]

Can your opponent do that to you if you can control him properly in ground game?

I assume the purpose of the ground game training is to have 100% control your opponent on the ground.

This question is absurd. Even the best grapplers in the world don't have 100% control over their opponents at all times.

And I am far from the best grappler in the world.

In fact, I specifically said in this thread that I cannot control this guy properly in the ground game. And that if I could, I probably wouldn't have an issue with him.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This question is absurd. Even the best grapplers in the world don't have 100% control over their opponents at all times.

And I am far from the best grappler in the world.

In fact, I specifically said in this thread that I cannot control this guy properly in the ground game. And that if I could, I probably wouldn't have an issue with him.

I don't understand your logic here.

If there is someone that I can't take down on wrestling mat, I won't say, "Even the best wrestlers in the world don't have 100% take down over their opponents at all times." I will just say, "My take down skill is not good enough", or "My wrestling skill has a flaw."

 

[skribs]

If there is someone that I can't take down on wrestling mat, I won't say, "Even the best wrestlers in the world don't have 100% take down over their opponents at all times." I will just say, "My take down skill is not good enough", or "My wrestling skill has a flaw."

I don't think you understand the point I was making in the story. So let me exaggerate a bit and maybe you'll understand.

Let's say the person takes you down, and then pulls out a knife and stabs you. Would the problem be the flaw in your wrestling skill, or the fact that another student pulled out a knife and stabbed you in the middle of the fight?

I'm not complaining about losing. I'm complaining about the fact that going against him is a risk for brain injury.

 

[gyoja]

I don't think you understand the point I was making in the story. So let me exaggerate a bit and maybe you'll understand.

Let's say the person takes you down, and then pulls out a knife and stabs you. Would the problem be the flaw in your wrestling skill, or the fact that another student pulled out a knife and stabbed you in the middle of the fight?

I'm not complaining about losing. I'm complaining about the fact that going against him is a risk for brain injury.

Has other students let the instructor know that this is a concern? If so, what was the response?

 

[skribs]

Has other students let the instructor know that this is a concern? If so, what was the response?

I'm not sure. I know that coaches (i.e. purple/brown) know he's pretty rough, and are hoping at some point he'll do something other than just wrestle, pin, submit, all at 100% intensity with little control over his knees and elbows.

The black belt (not the 4th degree Professor, but a regular black belt) doesn't really care if people are rough with him, and he had it rough growing up, so he doesn't really care. In fact, I think he was encouraged.

The Professor sighed when I told him what happened, but I don't know if he was just frustrated with the situation, or frustrated that this guy is still causing problems, or frustrated that I (a blue belt) couldn't handle him (a white belt).

 

[gyoja]

I'm not sure. I know that coaches (i.e. purple/brown) know he's pretty rough, and are hoping at some point he'll do something other than just wrestle, pin, submit, all at 100% intensity with little control over his knees and elbows.

The black belt (not the 4th degree Professor, but a regular black belt) doesn't really care if people are rough with him, and he had it rough growing up, so he doesn't really care. In fact, I think he was encouraged.

The Professor sighed when I told him what happened, but I don't know if he was just frustrated with the situation, or frustrated that this guy is still causing problems, or frustrated that I (a blue belt) couldn't handle him (a white belt).

How long has this been going on? It seems that it may have been happening for a while.

 

[skribs]

How long has this been going on? It seems that it may have been happening for a while.

This guy has been like this from Day 1.

 

[gyoja]

This guy has been like this from Day 1.

It seems like the instructors are fine with this behavior. Maybe they want the students to be more aggressive?

 

[skribs]

It seems like the instructors are fine with this behavior. Maybe they want the students to be more aggressive?

I'm not sure. I know that coaches (i.e. purple/brown) know he's pretty rough, and are hoping at some point he'll do something other than just wrestle, pin, submit, all at 100% intensity with little control over his knees and elbows.

 

[gyoja]

Sorry, I took what you wrote a different way. My apologies.

 

[drop bear]

So why do you roll with him?

 

[O'Malley]

The cool thing about competitive arts is that the meta doesn't lie: if what this guy does was actually effective, you'd see it at higher levels. This means that as your technique gets better, his cheap tricks will start not working anymore. And since he's relying on them he'll have a hard time making real improvements. In the meantime, there may be particular elements of BJJ that you can focus on that will make you more able to deal with him (I remember a term called "spazzing" in BJJ for this type of behaviour): How to tame and neutralize spazzy BJJ white belts that can injure you when rolling

 

[skribs]

So why do you roll with him?

I won't anymore.

The cool thing about competitive arts is that the meta doesn't lie: if what this guy does was actually effective, you'd see it at higher levels. This means that as your technique gets better, his cheap tricks will start not working anymore. And since he's relying on them he'll have a hard time making real improvements. In the meantime, there may be particular elements of BJJ that you can focus on that will make you more able to deal with him (I remember a term called "spazzing" in BJJ for this type of behaviour): How to tame and neutralize spazzy BJJ white belts that can injure you when rolling

This article is for when you're better than the other person.