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Monkey Turned Wolf

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I don't understand here.

If you use me as your

- training partner (skill development), I'll let you to do anything that you want to do. I'll be just your training dummy and I will not fight back.
- testing partner (skill testing), I'll try to defeat you and I'll not let you win.

This is skill development.


This is skill testing.


In skill testing, a high-level belt defeats his low-level belt opponent 5-0. Is this not true in BJJ?
Yes, but in this situation, it is his training partner, where they are working on skill development. Are at least, they're supposed to be.

Also, the belt rank difference here is not white belt vs. black belt, or high level vs low level. It's low belt vs. slightly less low belt (only one belt difference). I'd be hard pressed to find a martial art where someone one belt up beats someone a belt below them every single time.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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they are working on skill development.
So, it's skill development and not skill testing. But if your opponent is allowed to fight back, that's not "skill development" by definition. I must miss something here. ???

This video is skill development, his opponent doesn't fight back.

 
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Yes, but in this situation, it is his training partner, where they are working on skill development. Are at least, they're supposed to be.

Also, the belt rank difference here is not white belt vs. black belt, or high level vs low level. It's low belt vs. slightly less low belt (only one belt difference). I'd be hard pressed to find a martial art where someone one belt up beats someone a belt below them every single time.
Most of the no-stripe white belts I can.
 
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So, it's skill development and not skill testing. But if your opponent is allowed to fight back, that's not "skill development" by definition. I must miss something here. ???

In this skill development, his opponent doesn't fight back.

Skill development in BJJ is mostly done when your opponent is fighting back.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Skill development in BJJ is mostly done when your opponent is fighting back.
OK, here is my question.

This is the way to "develop" hip throw in Chinese wrestling.


Is there similar way that a BJJ guy develop his arm bar, leg bar, choke, full mount, side mount, ... when your opponent just let you do it and not fight back?

In other words, does BJJ have "partner drill"?

For example, you may "develop" your "side mount" this way. The difference is your opponent won't resist against you.

 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Yes, but in this situation, it is his training partner, where they are working on skill development. Are at least, they're supposed to be.

Also, the belt rank difference here is not white belt vs. black belt, or high level vs low level. It's low belt vs. slightly less low belt (only one belt difference). I'd be hard pressed to find a martial art where someone one belt up beats someone a belt below them every single time.
This is possibly a generational difference in training methodology. Lots of dog eat dog training in stories of the good old days. Its about what you want vs what you can do vs consideration for your real life risks. I really dont think there is a one size fits all for MA training.
 
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OK, here is my question.

This is the way to "develop" hip throw in Chinese wrestling.


Is there similar way that a BJJ guy develop his arm bar, leg bar, choke, full mount, side mount, ... when your opponent just let you do it and not fight back?

In other words, does BJJ have "partner drill"?

For example, you may "develop" your "side mount" this way. The difference is your opponent won't resist against you.

There is a drill portion of class, but we usually spend more than half of the class sparring (or as we call it: rolling).

Rolling starts with "positional rolls". This is to take the position you were drilling from, and have a very short win condition. For example, if we were in the position of closed guard and learned a sweep from there, we would start in closed guard. The bottom player needs to sweep (take top position). The top player needs to pass (open the guard, get past the legs). Pass or sweep, then reset.

The second round of the night is usually "live roll from the position". This means we start in closed guard, and only reset when someone taps.

After that, every round is "live roll from the feet", meaning we start from the feet, and we need to either take down or pull guard, and then go for a submission. Or every once in a while someone will do a standing submission.

There are gyms that don't drill at all. They teach what's called the Ecological training method. I don't know this well enough to accurately describe it, but the gist of it is that you create specific scenarios and goals that are designed to teach grappling concepts without drilling a specific set of steps.
 

dunc

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So, it's skill development and not skill testing. But if your opponent is allowed to fight back, that's not "skill development" by definition. I must miss something here. ???

This video is skill development, his opponent doesn't fight back.

I dont think this distinction between testing and development makes sense
In order to develop skills you have to start with compliant drilling then add progressive amounts of resistance and variability. Which in BJJ is done with positional rolling then free sparring
If you treat sparring as a test of skill then youre focused on the wrong objective
 

Kung Fu Wang

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In order to develop skills you have to start with compliant drilling then add progressive amounts of resistance
What is "progressive amounts of resistance"?

- 50% resisting?
- 75% resisting?
- 100% resisting?

IMO, develop and test are mutule exclusive. Not saying who is right or who is wrong, we just look at this differently.

When my teacher was young, he wrestled with his own father. he tried to beat his father in every single round.

When I wrestle with my students, I also try to win every single round.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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If you treat sparring as a test of skill then youre focused on the wrong objective
I like to look at this way, during skill

- development, you can smash me any way you like, because you are my friend.
- testing, I won't let you to do anything on me because you are my enemy.
 
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What is "progressive amounts of resistance"?

- 50% resisting?
- 75% resisting?
- 100% resisting?

IMO, develop and test are mutule exclusive. Not saying who is right or who is wrong, we just look at this differently.

When my teacher was young, he wrestled with his own father. he tried to beat his father in every single round.

When I wrestle with my students, I also try to win every single round.
Progressive means it gets bigger and bigger, so yes to all of the above.

Competition is where you test in BJJ. The rolls in class are all about development. Or they should be. Some people treat it like a test, and those are typically the most dangerous.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Progressive means it gets bigger and bigger, so yes to all of the above.

Competition is where you test in BJJ. The rolls in class are all about development. Or they should be. Some people treat it like a test, and those are typically the most dangerous.
Since you train TKD. Let's compare BJJ training with TKD training.

In TKD sparring, will you

- intentionally miss your block and allow your opponent's kick to land on your chest?
- slow yourself down just because your opponent is slow?

It seems to me that BJJ take a completely different training method than most of the striking art and wrestling art.
 
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dunc

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When I want to work on a mastering a particular technique I learn it in drills then I practice it with a partner progressively trying to prevent me from applying the technique
Then in free sparring (where there is no compliance) I put myself into the situation where the technique is appropriate and I try to apply it. Initially I do this with lower belts then progress to trying it with my peer group. Often I fail and get punished for trying a technique I've not mastered yet. So I go back and start again until I've mastered it
If I only want to win every round then I'll never master that technique because I won't risk trying it
 

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I thought that those kind of amped-up people would apologize if they went too far, and not say "Quit complaining, nobody else complains, it's only you, you're just mad you're getting beat by a white belt."
Meh, I see people so excited and amped up they don't know whether to flip, fly, or freak out.
 

marvin8

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I don't understand here.

If you use me as your

- training partner (skill development), I'll let you to do anything that you want to do. I'll be just your training dummy and I will not fight back.

- testing partner (skill testing), I'll try to defeat you and I'll not let you win.

This is skill development.

That's technique development, not skill development. There is a difference between technique and skill (application of technique). When training with a partner, there are better skill development drills.

This is skill testing. In skill testing, a high-level belt defeats his low-level belt opponent 5-0. Is this not true in BJJ?

A better way to test a low belt's skill level is against a less disparity in belt and experience. That's why there are belt divisions in tournaments.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I practice it with a partner progressively trying to prevent me from applying the technique
This is the center of this discussion. How much resistance do you expect from your opponent. I'm very interested in your opinion (because you have gone through this kind of training, but I never have).

For example, if you want to develop your side kick during sparring, what do you expect from your opponent's action?

If A throws a side kick at B. B uses downward block on A's side kick.

- If B's downward block hurts A's kicking leg, should A ask B to be gentle?
- If A's side kick hurt B's arm, should B ask A to be gentle?

When this happen, who's fault can this be? Is A's leg not strong enough, or is B's arm not strong enough?

If both A and B know each other, I can see this kind of corporation training is possible. If A and B are totally strangers, this kind of cooperation can be hard to achieve.

If you are allowed to kick me as hard as you can, but I'm not allowed to block your kick as hard as I can, it's not fair.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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That's technique development, not skill development.
To have 2 different kind of development environment can be confusion.

Yesterday, you let me take you down (you only resist 60%). Today, you won't let me take you down (you resist 90%). Why?
 
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dunc

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This is the center of this discussion. How much resistance do you expect from your opponent. I'm very interested in your opinion (because you have gone through this kind of training, but I never have).

For example, if you want to develop your side kick during sparring, what do you expect from your opponent's action?

If A throws a side kick at B. B uses downward block on A's side kick.

- If B's downward block hurts A's kicking leg, should A ask B to be gentle?
- If A's side kick hurt B's arm, should B ask A to be gentle?

When this happen, who's fault can this be? Is A's leg not strong enough, or is B's arm not strong enough?

If both A and B know each other, I can see this kind of corporation training is possible. If A and B are totally strangers, this kind of cooperation can be hard to achieve.

If you are allowed to kick me as hard as you can, but I'm not allowed to block your kick as hard as I can, it's not fair.
Probably in striking training it would be like progressing from a drill to 1/2 speed low power light sparring where your partner deliberately gives you opportunities for a side kick, to then scenarios where they don't feed you those opportunities, then to harder sparring where you are focusing on trying to incorporate side kicks in whenever possible to learn when it's appropriate and when it's not etc

I think I'm failing to get across the concept of a spectrum of resistance/variability etc
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Probably in striking training it would be like progressing from a drill to 1/2 speed low power light sparring where your partner deliberately gives you opportunities for a side kick,
If I'm your sparring partner, I can understand "low power light sparring". I may agree with you to go "1/2 speed". But I don't know how to "deliberately gives you opportunities for a side kick."

You want me to lower my defense. I may build up bad habit by doing so which defeat the purpose of my training. I want to develop my skill too.

If the sparring can only benefit you, but won't benefit me, I just don't see how we can agree to spar in the first place. In order for a sparring to benefit both of us, we can only do fake sparring (you let me punch you, I let you kick me). We both will develop false confidence that way.
 
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dunc

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If I'm your sparring partner, I can understand "low power light sparring". I may agree with you to go "1/2 speed". But I don't know how to "deliberately gives you opportunities for a side kick."

You want me to lower my defense. I may build up bad habit by doing so which defeat the purpose of my training. I want to develop my skill too.

If the sparring can only benefit you, but won't benefit me, I just don't see how we can agree to spar in the first place. In order for a sparring to benefit both of us, we can only do fake sparring (you let me punch you, I let you kick me). We both will develop false confidence that way.
Sparring is on a spectrum, it's not a binary thing
If you can't figure out how you might help your partner in that context then they won't help you either. Both people lose out on development opportunities
This is training and you get better faster in an environment where you and your partners are focused on mutual development
Reiterating that you also have to engage in full sparring where neither party is helping the other
 
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