The McDojo List

[Rainman]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



Only one problem with first hand reporting here: Subjective

Basics are basics nothing subjective about them. You can fight or you can't- nothing subjective about that either.

i don't believe in "bashing others", even if they are a McDojo.

Sure stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away. It will not- otherwise this conversation would not exist.

As long as we stick to reporting fact and can remain coolly objective, I see no problem with "The McDojo List." Bear in mind, we should encourage people to visit these schools and to decide for themselves (see #3 above). However, armed with the knowledge of WHAT to look for and beware of, particular gripes with the particular school, we would be equipping the potential truth-seeker to avoid scams, falsehoods, swindles, brainwashing, and perhaps even death by inferior instruction.

Yes, I agree. Turn the lights on and watch the roaches scatter.

 

[jkn75]

:soapbox:

Legally, the Internet is very new and the old laws of defamation, slander and libel need to absorb this new technology. Also, you have to remember that most judges are rich, old white men so they don't really even understand the Internet. So this area of the law is still up in the air, but you must always cover your butt.

Let me hop off:

I think that posting the factors that people think make a McDojo is OK. What makes a McDojo is a matter of personal opinion, but the purpose of this site (in my opinion) is to help educate people about martial arts and promote discussion about them.

If listing some of things to look for helps someone new to the martial arts avoid a McDojo, its worth it.

 

[J-kid]

We as Martial artist need to help the public to under stand that mcdojos are out there. (we can ether Stand together or sin in silence). Its your choice i hope you help the fight to get reed of the deise called mcdojos. Its just like a open Wound if not treated it will fester and become a bigger problem, LET US WORK TOGETHER AS THE BANDAID And Stop the mcdojos. My brothers and sisters!!!!!:revenge:

 

[chufeng]

I agree that a list of "red flags" to help identify what a McDojo is is a good idea.

I agree that IF you list the facts that happened to you without adding in your impressions (let the facts speak for themselves) you can list a particular school...for example, "I went to xxx school and this is what happened..."

I don't think it is safe practice to "defame, slander, or libel" any school...as I said, let the facts speak for themselves...and if someone would like to comment on the facts, after they've been posted, then that is just talk and probably safe...

Just remember that there is NO erasing electronic communication...once you send it, it lives forever.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Nightingale]

hmmm.... what about setting up another section on MT?

I would suggest setting up a "Dojo Experiences" section, where people can post stuff, good or bad. Let people rate their experiences on a scale of one to ten, and assign the dojo a number, such as "Joe Smith's Kenpo Karate" was rated 8/10 by visitors to this board.

have categories by style, and topics of dojo names.

that way, people can add a dojo with their reasoning behind it, and anyone could respond to add additional opinions, positive or negative.

stating your opinion about someone or something isn't libel or slander. so long as you precede your comments with "I think" or "I believe" you're probably okay, because those phrases flag a comment as an opinion. for the record: slander is spoken word defamation, libel is printed or broadcast defamation.


quote:
"Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone. Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively, they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws, which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.

In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve themselves in controversies.

endquote

the owner of a dojo could be considered as a public figure, because he, in essence, is marketing himself as an instructor. This is kind of a grey area, though, so my advice would be to just talk about the dojo in general and not target a specific person. see below...

quote:

helpful tips:
Avoid the impression of malice.

State the facts, and then state your opinion separately. This keeps things clear in your mind.

All wrong: "My neighbor John Smith is a stinking lush." This is wildly defamatory: an unproven, malicious ("stinking" and "lush" instead of "alcoholic") statement about a private individual.

Getting better: "Governor Smith consumed 14 glasses of whiskey last night at The Watering Hole Bar. In my opinion he's an alcoholic." The proof is a bit hazy -- getting drunk once does not prove alcoholism -- but a governor is a public figure with less protection than John Smith, you have clearly separated fact from opinion, and there is no particular evidence of malice.

Pretty safe: "Governor Smith consumed 14 glasses of whiskey last night at The Watering Hole Bar. I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's an alcoholic." This is entirely fact, with no clear evidence of malice, about a public figure.

What defamation is not.
Generally, a statement made about an undefinable group of people or organizations cannot be defamation. Take, "Real estate agents are crooks." It's defamatory enough, but there is no identifiable victim.

"Most of the agents at Smith Real Estate Company are crooks" is getting dicier, but it is still hard to define the victim.

"Smith Real Estate Company is a crooked company." Wham! You have a victim: Smith Real Estate Company.

endquote

so basically, you can phrase things like this:

"(insert name of mcdojo) charges (insert exact amount) for classes.
they charge (insert exact amount) for belt tests.
on the average, students reach black belt in one year

in my opinion, (mcdojo) is a McDojo because of these reasons. Personally, I do not feel that this school offers a quality martial arts education"

that, you can get away with.

saying "(mcdojo) is a mcdojo because the instructor is a pothead and overcharges students to spend all the monthly fee money on dope, and he lets people walk in and buy blackbelts" is libelous, because you're being malicious, and you can't prove it.

 

[jkn75]

Originally posted by nightingale8472


the owner of a dojo could be considered as a public figure, because he, in essence, is marketing himself as an instructor. This is kind of a grey area, though, so my advice would be to just talk about the dojo in general and not target a specific person.

Public figure- a person who has achieved fame or notoriety or who has voluntarily become involved in a public controversy. A public figure or public official(elected) suing for defamation must prove that the defendant acted with actual malice.

Limited purpose public figure- a person who, having become involved in a particular public issue, has achieved fame or notoriety in relation to that particular issue.

actual malice-Knowledge(by the person who utters or publishes a defamatory statement) that a statement is false, or reckless disregard about whether the statement is true.

Those definitions are from Black's Law Dictionary, 7th Edition.

But in the end what does it all mean? Lawyers make too much money for arguing over little crap like this.
Again always cover your butt.