The High Art of Tactical Folding Knife Deployment!

Doc_Jude

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I don't think I can recommend a folder as a primary bladed weapon. The fixed blade is going to be faster in all cases. As for legalities, always be sure you are carrying a legal blade according to your jurisdiction.

Folders are popular, but are just not as good as a fixed blade, IMHO. If you carry with defense in mind, I think they are 2nd rate.

Fixed blades are live immediately after the draw

True

More fixed blades are double edged

Yes, and daggers are illegal in many places. It's a killing implement, according to the law, period. Good luck justifying your carrying it.

More fixed blades are built better for thrusting

True. Of course, if it has a handguard to facilitate thrusting, then it's probably illegal in many places.

More fixed blades have a better grip

True

I'm sure there are good "tactical" folders (love that term) but if self defense is your primary concern, why start second rate?

Mostly because where I live (CA), fixed blades are vastly more regulated than folders.

I would love to wear a barong or a large bowie all the time, but it just isn't gonna happen 'round here. Yeah, I love my Right to Bear Arms, or what's left of it...

:soapbox:
 

Rich Parsons

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I don't think I can recommend a folder as a primary bladed weapon. The fixed blade is going to be faster in all cases. As for legalities, always be sure you are carrying a legal blade according to your jurisdiction.

Folders are popular, but are just not as good as a fixed blade, IMHO. If you carry with defense in mind, I think they are 2nd rate.

Fixed blades are live immediately after the draw
More fixed blades are double edged
More fixed blades are built better for thrusting
More fixed blades have a better grip

I'm sure there are good "tactical" folders (love that term) but if self defense is your primary concern, why start second rate?


No Dual edge blades in my area.
Fixed blades while hunting are accepted but to just carry, they have to be realitively small so I use the folder that fits my hand.

If I could carry a fixed blade that fit my hand I would no problem at all. ;) :D
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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I think that anyone who had a choice and could legally justify carrying a fixed blade would. Fixed blades are simply a better tool than a folding knife. However for many due to their states laws a fixed blade is not always an option. Where a folder of proper length is almost always okay.
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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Meanwhile, the bad guys who can't pick up a gun are carrying machete's.

That truely is the way it works.
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Brian R. VanCise

Brian R. VanCise

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Now for the desk jockey's or the profesional who sits behind a desk. Due you practice deployment undeneath your desk and with a concealed movement? I have several practitioner's who actually work in a high risk job that has high risk at their desk. They practice being able to deploy, quietly and concealed in case the situation arises.
 

Josh Oakley

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I carry a folder because it's more useful at my work. As far as self-defense goes, I have trained and trained a reverse grip deployment that works well, and quickly. One of the things I do in my practice is being able to cut on the draw. Saves quite a few seconds if you can do it right and gives an attacker less time to see the knife. Plus, quite frankly, if you have time for a two-handed deployment, you're likely not in a defensive situation; you're fixin to enter a fight.
 

MarkBarlow

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Now for the desk jockey's or the profesional who sits behind a desk. Due you practice deployment undeneath your desk and with a concealed movement? I have several practitioner's who actually work in a high risk job that has high risk at their desk. They practice being able to deploy, quietly and concealed in case the situation arises.

I have a push dagger taped to the bottom of my desk. Easily accessible and completely concealed. I don't want to count on having time to stand and draw my folder.
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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I have a push dagger taped to the bottom of my desk. Easily accessible and completely concealed. I don't want to count on having time to stand and draw my folder.

Well I will say this I like your choice of tool as I am a huge push dagger trainer and advocate. So that is definately a great option to have available. (for short bladed work that is the best as it is almost impossible to disarm someone trained let alone untrained who has a push dagger)
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For the practitioner's I cited above that is just not an option for them due to work rules, legality here in Michigan, etc. So they are stuck with a folding knife and we work around it by practicing concealment, misdirection, etc. when opening.
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Rich Parsons

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Now for the desk jockey's or the profesional who sits behind a desk. Due you practice deployment undeneath your desk and with a concealed movement? I have several practitioner's who actually work in a high risk job that has high risk at their desk. They practice being able to deploy, quietly and concealed in case the situation arises.


I had a pipe in at my desk to practice "Stick" work. I have carried a pocket knife/tool at work, but sometimes there is a no knife/tool policy and other times there is. If someone cuts themselves, then the tool is not allowed. Later they realize that it is a tool and the razor blade box openers are allowed so are the pocket knives or the leatherman/with multiple tools.

I practice in the car in my truck at my desk. But that is just me, and being slightly obsessive compulsive is my defense. ;)
 

Doc_Jude

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That truely is the way it works.
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But how often are they trained in their use? That's the question.
We folks train hard, & that's the way that I want to keep it!
With that in mind, I do appreciate my right to carry an umbrella or cane (I have a good excuse to walk with a cane, or at least on paper. My physical therapist was very good!)
 
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Brian R. VanCise

Brian R. VanCise

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But how often are they trained in their use? That's the question.
We folks train hard, & that's the way that I want to keep it!
With that in mind, I do appreciate my right to carry an umbrella or cane (I have a good excuse to walk with a cane, or at least on paper. My physical therapist was very good!)

Well that is an advantage that we have. So I am with you that I will continue to train and seek out any advantage that I can. Ie. folding knive, cane, firearm, etc. That way I will hopefully have the edge in the moment with some street criminal if something comes to pass.
 

Kage-Ronin

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I have a dozen or so training folding knives but lately I have been using this model because the size/feel is almost identical to my everyday carry which is a CRKT. Plus I get them really cheap and they hold up well under the pressure that I put them through.

http://www.centurymartialarts.com/D...itemguid=9b266311-8b98-44c3-91e1-c33ed5cb441b


Mr VanCise,

Thanks for that link! I have priced these trainers at upwards of $45 - $80, depending on the catalog.
This is the cheapest I have seen these yet. Got one on order now!

~ Rob
 

Cruentus

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I know this is an old thread, but I thought I would revive it just to mention that we have been touting a 2-handed opening now that we pioneered for quite sometime as the most practical opening method in most circumstances. That is my opinion, which is shared by many now a days from what I understand. The advantages far outway the disadvantages. Just something to think about while your training! :)

C.
 

Cruentus

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Some Details?

Hi Doc. I'll paste a good explination from another forum (FMAtalk, actually). It is hard to explain online, but hopefully you and everyone will get the gist. I know that I really should post a video clip or something of that nature, but honestly it is not at the top of my to-do list at the moment.

Keep in mind that I mention this online really because I believe in the method due to what I have seen when we've tested the material, and I think that it is something that really could make the difference if one were forced to use a knife in self-defense. I don't usually "give away" our methods on an online forum because not only does it open us up to criticism of the destructive rather then constructive kind, but frankly, it is something that people are willing to pay for in an instructional format. But, it is just an opening method - not a big deal on the difficulty scale technique-wise, and for one to take or leave accordingly.

So, take it or leave it, and if you think it is useful, then by all means add it or something similar to your curriculum. :)

First off, I will disclaim that I don't want to insult anyone here. I know that the common ways taught for folder deployment in knife combatives and martial arts are mostly one handed methods. I also don't expect everyone here to fully understand the exact method that I am promoting because it is proprietary to Tulisan Company. That is not to say that 2 handed methods haven't been used by others in the past, or that they won't be promoted by someone else in the future. It is just that we developed a specific two-handed method, it is what we prefer, and at the moment other knife combatives sources aren't promoting these methods (that I know of).

So, that said, I expect most people to disagree with me, and prefer 1-handed openers.

Also, this is much better shown then typed about. Maybe at some point I can put something on tape and offer a clip for FMA talk, martialtalk, or my own site if I can ever get that together; but it isn't high on the priority list at the moment.

So, all that said, I will do my best to explain the development of this method, and where we came up with the crazy idea that a 2-handed method is better then 1.

It started with some local seminars I had been teaching years ago, before Tulisan Company had even been established, called the EDC knife series. EDC stood for "every day carry." In this seminar we dealt with the issue of knife deployment. I talked about the importance of deployment, I showed a few opening methods, and I focused on the one-handed methods that everyone pretty much does. Most of the people in these seminars had previous training, and were familiar with these methods.

Then, I had everyone stand in a fighting platform (fighting stance) facing themselves in the mirrors with their knives placed wherever they prefer to carry them (pocket clip, belt loop, etc.). Then at the count of 3, with no surprises, I would say draw ("1...2...3...Draw!). All they had to do was deploy the knife and present it. Hands had to start up and open. We started at slow speed, and worked our way up to full speed.

I had done this with a few different groups. Even at the slow speeds, people were dropping and flinging their knives with the 1-handed methods. And, this was without combat stress. No one was in front of them trying to hurt them, yet with the simple stress of me yelling 1-2-3-draw, knives were everywhere. Now, not everyone dropped them, but enough people did for this to be a concern. Plus EVERYONE had to exert a fair amount of concentration and speed regulation to NOT fling or drop the knife; something that WILL NOT happened in a fight, no matter how trained the fighter is.

I realized from teaching these events that this was a REAL PROBLEM with a much needed solution.

My advice at the time was for them to practice drawing every day, 10 minutes a day, as I did for months and months. And, I will admit that repeated practice does help, even though it doesn't make it perfectly reliable.

Well, we messed with this for a long time, realizing that folding knife deployment under combat stress is a real problem that needed a real solution. What we came up with was the 2-handed opener. Here is the important aspects of it:

1. TECHNIQUE: With knife in palm between thumb pad and fingers ("plam ready"), the live hand (hand not holding the knife) grips the blade edge between thumb and forefinger. If you have distance between you and the threat (attacker), then the blade hand leads with elbow up towards threat, the live hand grips back blade edge and the knife hand extends forward, opening the knife and placing the point of the knife towards the threat. If you don't have distance, meaning the threat is right "on" you, then the knife hand is back and your live hand leads with elbow up towards threat to cover, you grip the knife the same way, but you "pop" the knife hand downward while the live hand stays up, thus opening the knife with the knife hand back but with the point towards the threat. The key to the method is that once the knife is in a palm ready position, it can be deployed in one sweeping motion.

Now, lets discuss WHY it works.

2. You need TIME and "no action" for deployment. For ANY type of knife deployment, you need the time to put the blade into the fight. For ANY type of folder with ANY type of opening method, you need significantly more time then other weapon options. If it is a predictable incident where you can have the blade palm ready and are essentially expecting to use your blade, you only need about 1 second give or take a few tenths to deploy. If it is a spontanious incident, the fight will start WITHOUT YOUR KNIFE. You CANNOT DEPLOY YOUR KNIFE IN THE MIDST OF THE FIGHT, regardless of what opening method or type of knife you use. You will have to fight knifeless until you can buy yourself time to deploy. You will need a 3-5 second break in action for this to happened. This is what we have discovered through stress testing scenarios.

Because every opening method and type of folding knife requires both time and a break in action for deployment, this means that you can afford to use both hands to open the knife in an incident.

3. Benefits to the "old fashion" two handed opener.

a. You don't sacrifice speed with this method. When done as I explained, you can deploy your knife just as fast or faster then the other one-handed opening methods. The only folder that is faster are autos and spring assists, depending on which make/model. In some ways, the old fashion method can be faster because it immediately puts the knife on point in one sweeping motion, verses some of the multiple motions needed with the one-handed openers.

b. It is the most reliable method available. With the two handed opener, you KNOW that your folder is open, and are less likely to accidently not open the folder all the way, or to drop the folder.

c. It is as gross-motor and simple as you can get. Other methods often require some use of fine motor skills, or complex motor skills for knife deployment. They require significant grip adjustments, or fumbling with thumb holes, studs, levers, or what have you. They require complex motions like wrist flicks and pops that may take practice. These skills tend to break down under combat stress. This is why I have witnessed so many dropped knives. The "old fashion" method doesn't require these complex skills.

d. The "old-fashion" method is universal. It works with almost any folding knife you pick up. Many of the one-handed knife industry openers will only work on certain types of designs. The two-hander works well on practically every type of design.

Limitations of the "old fashion" method:

The only real limitation between this method and the other one-handed methods are that this method requires two hands. On the surface, this limitation seems to be a major one, until one studies all the factors further. In reality, this limitation is reduced to not really being a problem at all. If done as I explain, your live hand is only occupied for a short moment, and you are well protected during this moment. Plus, because of the need for TIME and NON-ACTION for all methods, this factor of two hands being occupied for a second is greatly minimized as being an issue, making it practically a non-issue all together.

Conclusion: For reasons I already mentioned, I don't expect everyone to drop what they are doing to do our method. I do expect everyone to at least respect the "old fashion" opener as a valid method, for the reasons I have explained. Also, understand that this method has been well researched, and therefore the statements I have made aren't just speculation.

That all said, the only need for a one handed opener, in my opinion, is if you only have one hand. Except for the case of auto's and spring assisted knives, we have moved almost exclusively to the "old fashion" method, and have been quite happy with the results.

C.
 

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