The 'freedom' our troops are dying for?

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6036521.ece

All our troops are fighting and dying for is so that Afghanistan can go back to exactly how it was before? The 'new' Afghan government is bringing in laws that legalise rape in marriage among other things, they are changing nothing,in fact they plan to change everything back to the way it was. The people are going to be no better off than they were before and the terrorists will sit there laughing at us for, of course, they will have won.

"From London to Ottawa, officials questioned whether they should risk their soldiers lives to bolster an Afghan government that not only failed to protect women but was also planning to reverse their hard-won freedoms"

It was announced yesterday that more troops are to be sent into Afghistan, our (the British) share was to be over 900, a regiment. It makes me angry for so many reasons, they say its because there will be elections but how are these elections going to be free when women can't come out of their houses, does anyone really think women will be allowed to vote? or basically anyone who the 'government' doesn't want to vote.

We have lost nearly 160 soldiers in Afghanistan with hundreds more suffering horrendous injuries, (I'm sorry I don't know the figures for non British troops, I suspect they are equally as high if not higher) all in the name of freedom. they really thought that going there and fighting the Taleban would make a difference to the peoples lives, give them the freedom and liberty we know but no, it's just so things can stay the same only with a different faction in charge.

On Wednesday one of my students was buried, a talented martial artist and a good soldier he was blown to pieces in Afghanistan 'defending' freedom. It was a good send off, the 'old boys' of the regiment, the World War 2, Korea and Falklands soldiers were there. All with memories of their own losses fighting for freedom. The worst bit was at the end when silence as the coffin was taken out of the church was broken by the lone piper playing a lament.

Now I want to shout and scream WHY, why are our troops fighting and dying for nothing!
 

Big Don

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
10,551
Reaction score
189
Location
Sanger CA
This is what happens when those in power decide that we cannot force our morals on others. This is what happens when a segment of a religion is so feared our leaders won't dare speak against obvious evils, lest they offend some whackos that may explode with little provocation.
 

MA-Caver

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
14,960
Reaction score
312
Location
Chattanooga, TN
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6036521.ece

All our troops are fighting and dying for is so that Afghanistan can go back to exactly how it was before?
Nope, all our troops (U.S. & Britain) are fighting and dying to keep the banking folks rolling in the money from their respective *ahem* governments that will continue to borrow (at interest of course) to keep the war going so that our troops can keep fighting and dying for a cause that has NOTHING to do with our respective freedoms... kinda like Vietnam... that war was not MEANT to be won (or lost) at all... but Sustained.

War is damned good business and highly profitable. We can't have peace now, not when there's boo-koos of money to be made.
 
OP
Tez3

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
I don't believe we can force our morals on people and frankly we shouldn't have invaded Afghanistan in the first place. There's a number of reasons why not, firstly being British and having already fought an unsuccessful war there we should have known better. The Russians who were far more 'forceful' not to say brutal about war were defeated there also, what the hell did we think we could do that they couldn't?
The big 'but' is that we did however and what's done is done, however you would have thought that the Allies would have at least chosen Afghanis who at least shared western values to work with. The whole situation is a complete mess.
Why Bush thought that invading Afghanistan was such a good idea we'll never know and never ever will I forgive his poodle BLiar for this.
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
14,964
Reaction score
3,266
Location
Michigan
Why Bush thought that invading Afghanistan was such a good idea we'll never know and never ever will I forgive his poodle BLiar for this.

Actually, we do know. If you were saying 'Iraq' instead of 'Afghanistan', then I'd agree with you, but we know quite well why we invaded Afghanistan.

The Taliban controlled Afghanistan. We didn't much like them, and they didn't much like us, but we left each other alone. Afghanistan has no oil, no strategic interest to the USA.

But we tracked the plotters of the 9/11 attacks in the USA to terrorists who were hiding in Afghanistan, and whose training bases were in Afghanistan.

We (the US) demanded that the Taliban surrender the terrorists to us. They refused. We gave them an ultimatum, which they ignored, and then we invaded them.

We easily routed the Taliban, who fled. We failed, however, to locate all the terrorists, including the ring-leader, Osama bin Laden.

In the years since then, we have faced insurgent action from the remnants of the ousted Taliban, as well as indications that both Al Quaida and the Taliban are working together on and around the Pakistan border, in some cases with the cooperation of the hardline Muslim villages in the areas of Pakistan not firmly under Pakistani control, and perhaps from some factions within the Pakistani armed forces.

It is important to remember the original situation. We did not go into Afghanistan to bring democracy to Afghanistan. We did not go in to enforce regime change in particular, that was just a side-effect of kicking their asses. The world, unlike the invasion of Iraq, was on our side. Even our traditional foes stood back and went 'oh, hell no, we're not saying nothing'. We (the US) were mad, we were hurting, Afghanistan was harboring the people who were proudly admitting they did it, and we were going to get us some. There was nothing in HELL that would have stopped that invasion. Bush didn't even have a choice - we'd have strung him up and gone in using commandeered shrimp boats if he'd refused.

Unlike Iraq, we don't particularly care what happens to Afghanistan after we leave. They can fall back into warlordism, or the Taliban can come back and tear down all the schools and whatnot. All we want is to save some face and capture or kill bin Laden and his cronies, finally put a bow on that little package, and get the hell out.

I don't know why your fellow countrymen are in Afghanistan with us, but I am sorry for your loss, and I honor the sacrifice your servicemen and women have made.

Wikipedia War in Afghanistan
 
OP
Tez3

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
I have been involved in tracking terrorists and their activities since 1971, it would have been far better to have gone for the bankers who payroll the terrorists in Syria and Iran than invade Afghanistan. Brute force and ignorance rarely works well other than make the munitions manufactorers
extremely happy and rich.
America may have wanted to go in and wham bam the Afghans but British troops are there on a hearts and minds mission too. Several of my colleagues are also out there teaching the Afghans how to be police officers, other civil servants are out there trying to make the country run and teach the Afghans how to run the adminstration of the country.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...SoldiersHelpImproveEducationForAfghanKids.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...neersReturnHomeAfterHelpingRebuildHelmand.htm

"UK forces are in Afghanistan as part of a multi-national mission designed to help stabilise Afghanistan and bring security back to the region."

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...mbatMedicsTreatTroopsAndCiviliansInSangin.htm
"On many occasions we have formed bonds with local people due to the follow-up treatment of their injuries and medical complaints. This is important as it helps all our forces operating in the area - we are here to win the consent of the local people after all."

This is the official reason we are in afghanistan.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/F...perationsInAfghanistanBackgroundBriefing2.htm


"We, along with the rest of the international community, are determined never to allow Afghanistan to become a safe haven for terrorists again. We are working hard towards a common goal to develop a self-sustaining, stable and democratic Afghanistan.
Real progress has been made in the last five years, but clearly there will be many challenges and opportunities in the year ahead.
Important to remember that the institutions of a functioning democracy are being established from scratch. Children, including girls, are back in school. Women are participating in political life.
The Afghan economy is picking up. Afghanistan has reclaimed its place in the community of nations.

UK troops, as part of the 37-nation strong NATO International Assistance Force (ISAF), are aiming to create a stable environment to enable the Afghan Government extend its authority across the country and reconstruction and development to take place.
We can and will succeed, but only if we all stand and work together, adopting a comprehensive approach that encompasses all our international partners and organisations."

Thats the mission statement for the Ministry of Defence (who I work for), thats what our troops and civil servants are working towards. Yes we believe in it and it seems we are to be shafted yet again by the politicians.
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,173
Reaction score
1,151
Location
Lives in Texas
Actually, we do know. If you were saying 'Iraq' instead of 'Afghanistan', then I'd agree with you, but we know quite well why we invaded Afghanistan.

The Taliban controlled Afghanistan. We didn't much like them, and they didn't much like us, but we left each other alone. Afghanistan has no oil, no strategic interest to the USA.

But we tracked the plotters of the 9/11 attacks in the USA to terrorists who were hiding in Afghanistan, and whose training bases were in Afghanistan.

We (the US) demanded that the Taliban surrender the terrorists to us. They refused. We gave them an ultimatum, which they ignored, and then we invaded them.

We easily routed the Taliban, who fled. We failed, however, to locate all the terrorists, including the ring-leader, Osama bin Laden.

In the years since then, we have faced insurgent action from the remnants of the ousted Taliban, as well as indications that both Al Quaida and the Taliban are working together on and around the Pakistan border, in some cases with the cooperation of the hardline Muslim villages in the areas of Pakistan not firmly under Pakistani control, and perhaps from some factions within the Pakistani armed forces.

It is important to remember the original situation. We did not go into Afghanistan to bring democracy to Afghanistan. We did not go in to enforce regime change in particular, that was just a side-effect of kicking their asses. The world, unlike the invasion of Iraq, was on our side. Even our traditional foes stood back and went 'oh, hell no, we're not saying nothing'. We (the US) were mad, we were hurting, Afghanistan was harboring the people who were proudly admitting they did it, and we were going to get us some. There was nothing in HELL that would have stopped that invasion. Bush didn't even have a choice - we'd have strung him up and gone in using commandeered shrimp boats if he'd refused.

Unlike Iraq, we don't particularly care what happens to Afghanistan after we leave. They can fall back into warlordism, or the Taliban can come back and tear down all the schools and whatnot. All we want is to save some face and capture or kill bin Laden and his cronies, finally put a bow on that little package, and get the hell out.

I don't know why your fellow countrymen are in Afghanistan with us, but I am sorry for your loss, and I honor the sacrifice your servicemen and women have made.

Wikipedia War in Afghanistan

My only comment to this is, if we lose the Pakistan government to Al Quaida and the Taliban, they will effectively have nuclear weapons, that can be turned onto the world. Our presents in Afghanistan, although not well understood, I feel, is needed as a deterrent to this end.
 

Scott T

Brown Belt
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
421
Reaction score
5
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6036521.ece

We have lost nearly 160 soldiers in Afghanistan with hundreds more suffering horrendous injuries, (I'm sorry I don't know the figures for non British troops, I suspect they are equally as high if not higher) all in the name of freedom. they really thought that going there and fighting the Taleban would make a difference to the peoples lives, give them the freedom and liberty we know but no, it's just so things can stay the same only with a different faction in charge.
So far, the cost in Canadian lives is 116 and rising. It's a depressing thought really, that the more of these backsliding laws are contemplated or put into practice, the more pointless and valueless those deaths really were.
 
OP
Tez3

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
So far, the cost in Canadian lives is 116 and rising. It's a depressing thought really, that the more of these backsliding laws are contemplated or put into practice, the more pointless and valueless those deaths really were.

Absolutely. Accepting these deaths is easier if one knows they died for a reason. If it was for nothing it would be heartbreaking.

I have to say too that I have only heard good things about the Canadian troops.
Btw the troops that aren't in Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment are all due in Canada over the next couple of weeks for a six week exercise at BATUS Suffield. The troops always look forward to going over to Canada.
 

CoryKS

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
183
Location
Olathe, KS
They're not fighting for the freedom of the Afghans. They're fighting for our freedom to go to work and not be run over by a 747.
 
OP
Tez3

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
They're not fighting for the freedom of the Afghans. They're fighting for our freedom to go to work and not be run over by a 747.

I think thats the difference between us then, our troops firmly believe they are fighting to do some good not to stop Americans being run over by aircraft.
 

CoryKS

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
183
Location
Olathe, KS
I think thats the difference between us then, our troops firmly believe they are fighting to do some good not to stop Americans being run over by aircraft.

You stay classy, Irene.
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,173
Reaction score
1,151
Location
Lives in Texas
I think thats the difference between us then, our troops firmly believe they are fighting to do some good not to stop Americans being run over by aircraft.
Yes, we are there for the same reasons. I communicate with a loved one that tells me of the progress being made, but at the same time, trying to stay safe, from the nut jobs that dont have a clue what life is all about and only have destruction as their intent.
 
OP
Tez3

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
The invasion of Afghanistan is a fait accompli, nothing we can do about that now even though to many professional terrorist hunters minds it was fairly pointless. As I said before, proper human intelligence should have been heeded first before a headlong rush for revenge was launched. Al queda may have been at that time in Afghanistan but it was fairly obvious to most that bombing a whole country and invading them wasn't going to be the answer as they would simply move on to another one of the countries that supported then.

However now the troops are there it is imperative that change is made in Afghanistan, firstly to ensure that a democratic government is put in and allows freedom to all, this isn't just a humanitarian action though it should be reason enough in its self, no this is because such a country will be an ally to the West in its hunt for terrorists. The invasion and the high handed manner in which it was executed has angered many in countries like Pakistan thus alienating the very people we want onside. High handness and arrogance were deadly mistakes to make.

By invading Afghanistan and as countries who say we pride ourselves on democracy and humanitarian beliefs we are now duty bound to try to improve the conditions under which the people live. To say oh we don't care about the people and they can all go to hell is to put us in the same category as the people we are trying to defeat. We can't take the moral high ground saying we are fighting for our freedom not to be bombed when the Americans are sending drones into Pakistan to bomb people there. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5575883.ece

We can't say we are in the right unless we truly try to help these people and not leave them to be destroyed by the Taliban, what sort of people can we say we are if we invade countries, destroy homes, kill innocent people as well as the guilty under the pretext of fighting for freedom for only ourselves?
 

5-0 Kenpo

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 9, 2005
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
60
I think thats the difference between us then, our troops firmly believe they are fighting to do some good not to stop Americans being run over by aircraft.

So are you saying that Americans getting run over by 747's is a good thing, and not worth fighting for?

Are you suggesting that the UK shouldn't help us from getting run over by 747's?
 
OP
Tez3

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
So are you saying that Americans getting run over by 747's is a good thing, and not worth fighting for?

Are you suggesting that the UK shouldn't help us from getting run over by 747's?

If I was saying that I would have, no I'm saying you are in Afghanistan for revenge and have no intention of making the country a better place. It's already been said on this thread that there is no interest in the people whatso ever.

If you want to stop Americans getting run over by aircraft then invading Afghanistan was not the way to do it. It's all very well saying oh we asked the Taliban to hand them over and they wouldn't so then invade and destroy the whole country. Al Queda only moved on anyway. You have to destroy the root of the problem and in doing so then you will protect Americans and everyone else from being run over.

The 'whole' world wasn't on America's side when Afghanistan was invaded, the majority of Brits weren't that's for sure! People understood and sympathised with Americas need to punish those responsible for the damage but most of us weren't convinced that invading Afghanistan was the answer.the British military didn't want to go in, after all we'd already had three wars there. It's too simplistic an answer causing too much death and suffering by innocents. Bombing the hell out of Afghanistan may seem like a good idea but won't rid us of the terrorists.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...nder-Brigadier-Mark-Carleton-Smith-warns.html

Our troops believe that they are in Afghanistan to do some good, to make a difference. They aren't there for revenge or to wipe out villagers celebrating weddings. They believe and many of the rest of us do too that if we do the right thing and we can bring a peaceful solution to the area and its problems that will safeguard us in the future. So no we aren't there primarily to stop Americans being run over by planes, we are there to do as much as we can for as many innocents as we can, to make the world a better place ( you can sneer at our idealism but remember the guys who are dying believe this) this could stop all people being run over by planes not just Americans.
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
Afghanistan has no oil, no strategic interest to the USA.

Since the Caspian oil and gas fields turned out to be duds, this actually is true NOW. However, when we first invaded Afghanistan, there were plans to secure a route for a pipeline across the country. These plans were in place before 9/11 and by the summer of 2001 the US was informing countries in the regions that we would be "on the ground before the snow fell."

On top of that, Afghanistan was part of a broader strategy laid out by the conservative think tank Project for the New American Century, in which Iran would be surrounded with troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Naval bases would be secured in Qatar and air bases in Uzbekistan. For a time span of about 18 months, war with Iran was imminent, but factions within the US government were able to block it and decide upon a different strategy.

"Terrorists" were always the excuse that was sold to us. If were just about the "terrorists" things on the ground would have been a lot different and I don't think we would have been there for years and years. The scary part about this current regime is that they seem to have switched the focus from Iran to Russia. The Obama administration (a puppet of Brzezinsky) seems to want Afghanistan and Pakistan under it's thumb in order to curb Russian influence.

This little bit of craziness could restart the Cold War.

If it were up to me I'd pull the troops out and hunt down the petty war masters within our own country. They should rot in jail cells for the rest of their lives for the simple fact that these people consider war to be a tool to arrange the world to their tastes.
 

Big Don

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
10,551
Reaction score
189
Location
Sanger CA
Yeah, you're right, we should have just ignored the opium farming, women abusing little bastards. How dare we decree that women have the same rights as men? If the Taliban decrees that women are property and not entitled to more consideration than livestock, well, shoot, that is just the way it is in Afghanistan and we have to respect that, the very idea of forcing them to treat all people as equal is just forcing our morals on them and therefore wrong.
 

Latest Discussions

Top