The Fate of Lt. Colonel West: You can help!

[Karazenpo]

I just had to post this. It's a copy and paste from a veteran on a forum of which I'm a moderator. We are having the same discussion there, too. "Joe"

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There was a bumper sticker that said, "If you can read this, thank a Teacher, and if it is in English, thank a Veteran.”

Having been in Beirut under lousy rules of engagement I cannot believe we still have people who think combat is all knights in shinning armor. Combat is kill, or be killed plain and simple. Do what is takes no matter what to ensure you, your buddies and other innocent people are safe and come home.

Col. West did not kill anyone during this ordeal but saved lives, there is a fine line and he did not cross it. I wonder how many letters he had to send home on those under his command who were killed, that has got to be unnerving. “What could I have done to save him/her” has to cross his mind as he sat down to write those letters, or worse, holding a mortally wounded American as their life leaves their body with then asking you to take care of their new born, wife, children. Makes you think doesn’t it?

I will be spending Thanksgiving in the comforts of my own home with loved one’s gathered around. I will also raise a toast to those proud Americans I knew and did not know who gave the ultimate sacrifice, their life so I can raise that toast. People lets raise a toast and support our troops, no matter where they are.

Thank you Col. West for serving I will not forget and have logged on to support you.

Respectfully Dennis Peterson U.S.M.C Semper Fi all.

 

[Karazenpo]

Please do my a favor, I really mean this. It's not a put down to anyone, so please don't take it that way. If you are a non veteran and never served rent the movie "BlackHawk Down!", please! According to those that lived it, this movie is an 'on the money', extremely accurate, historical re-enactment but they also stated it still wasn't as 'horrible' as the real thing, which is unimaginable! See "BlackHawk Down!" and even though we have opposing views, please be open minded. After viewing it, then we all can talk more on the Geneva Convention and the fate of Lt. Colonel West! "BlackHawk Down!" Not the book, for the full effect, see the movie. Respectfully, "Joe"

 

[michaeledward]

When I was young, I too looked thru rose colored glasses.

At 39 years old, I am old enough to be aware of the consequences of my point of view.

I volunteered to serve my country and DEFEND it.

If the actions we are talking about were required to defend our country, perhaps the arguments you put forth would carry a bit more credibility. The actions in Iraq are not based on defense.

As mentioned earlier, the 29 premises put forth by the Secretary of State an the United Nations Security Council meeting of this past January, have not been found to be true; NO evidence of against these 29 accusations used to justify our invasion (based on immenent danger by Iraq) has been discovered in the six plus months since we declared the end of Combat. (Please note, that Secretary Powel did not put forth the yellowcake arguement made by the President in the State of the Union address).

Was the government of Iraq cruel and oppressive. Absolutely. But they were not a threat to the sovereignty of the United States of America, and very little threat to our allies in the region.

You can defeat terrorism in the courts........

Well, it seems we aren't doing a very good job on the battlefield either. In fact, Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld recently stated that we do not even have the ability to measure our progress in the War on Terror (...are we capturing or killing them faster than the massadras' can recruit them...).

We have not captured or killed (to our knowledge) Osama (dead or alive) bin Laden. Since our military has removed the governing bodies of Afghanistan and Iraq, there have been successful Al Qaeda attacks in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Indonesia, and elsewhere. It seems that Al Qaeda continues to conduct operations at the time, and in the place, of their choosing.

I have just read parts of Lt. Colonel Wests email to the Washinton Post newspaper. In response to their questions the Lt. Colonel admits that what he did was wrong. And as punishment he says he is will to accept 'Retirement at the level of Major'.

I was wrong ... so please ... promote me, retire me, and allow me to get the hell out of Iraq ... and everything will go away quietly.

I once thought that such hubris was reserved for Presidents, Vice Presidents, and Secretaries of Defence (past & present).

Health and Happiness to all - Mike

 

[Karazenpo]

Excerpt from Mike's post:
I have just read parts of Lt. Colonel Wests email to the Washinton Post newspaper. In response to their questions the Lt. Colonel admits that what he did was wrong. And as punishment he says he is will to accept 'Retirement at the level of Major'.


But Mike, c'ome on now, what's he supposed to say? He's facing the loss of his pension and up to 8 years in prison! Do you think he really, I mean really means it? I bet he would do it all over again in heartbeat given the same circumstances. Imho, he knows he's up against the system, he's not going to beat it any other way so he's telling them what the want to hear-it's simply another form of 'survival'...just a different kind, it's called 'political suicide' if he says the wrong thing. How many people on this board have gone to job interviews and to get the job told the interviewer what he/she wanted to hear? but not what you really would like to say. How many times have you decided to be politically correct in your job with someone you would have rather said, 'Go f.... yourself!' Know what I mean? or telling someone there is no hard feelings when there is? Have a great turkey day, lol, Respectfully, Joe

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Disco

How in the hell are our internal criminal laws going to stop brainwashed religious zealots?

Disco,

I have never served this is corrrect. I have never put on a badge and I have not protected and served as a police officer or law enforcement. Yet, I will still reply.


How do you explain the extreme religious right here in the USA buying Radio stations in the MId East and sending over radio waves that all Muslims are evil and Dogs and Devil Worshippers? HOw is that these Christians can set the tone for us civilians and soldiers and politicians? I mean as far as they are concernt we have declared war on them. We have told them as much in the radio annoucements, that we are going to change their way of life. THat their culture is not the right culture.

Would not some Americans do something violent, if this was done to our country. THis in no ways excuses what Happened on 9/11. And I apologize for the way this may sound. I have the out most respect for all those who do serve and those who perished.

Since in your mind this is an unjust war, does you son ave the option to resign early? or is he locked into to his hitch no matter what? I am curious nothing more.


Thank You
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Mike, Robert & Rich, I was going to respond to your posts but after reading 'Disco', I don't have too because I can't improve on the truth. I think everyone who has never donned a uniform outside of a karate gi should listen a little bit to one who has, he's been there and done that and now his son is there. It's so easy to make these 'righteous' decisions when you've never walked in their boots. Kind of like the overweight, non-athletic beer drinking armchair manager of the football and baseball games. God bless and a Happy Thanksgiving to all! Respectfully submitted. PS: Thumbs up to 'Disco' and I thank you and your son for serving. I pray that he has a safe tour of duty and returns home soon.

You are correct as I just posted I never did serve.

Question, have you ever been shot at? At close range? How many knives at one time have your fought against? How many people was a normal fight even if no weapons were visible is normal for your experience.

Just because someone has not served does not mean theh have not seen action or been involved in our own streets. Just because you are in service and doing one of the 7 to 9 jobs requried to keep a front line soldier in the field, does not mean you have seen action either.

No Disrepect to any one who has to live in the fear of losing a loved one or for actually living through scud attacks or street attacks. I hope everyone makes it home safe and sound.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Please do my a favor, I really mean this. It's not a put down to anyone, so please don't take it that way. If you are a non veteran and never served rent the movie "BlackHawk Down!", please! According to those that lived it, this movie is an 'on the money', extremely accurate, historical re-enactment but they also stated it still wasn't as 'horrible' as the real thing, which is unimaginable! See "BlackHawk Down!" and even though we have opposing views, please be open minded. After viewing it, then we all can talk more on the Geneva Convention and the fate of Lt. Colonel West! "BlackHawk Down!" Not the book, for the full effect, see the movie. Respectfully, "Joe"

The History Channel version is great representation of what actually happened in my mind as it has actual interviews. Check this version out as well, it is only an hour long though.



And Yes, I have opposing views, and I have seen it over a year ago. War sucks. It is horrible. People get stabbed and die. People get shot and die. People get bombed and die.

From the replies here I see that my opinion does not count since I have not served let alone seen battle as a soldier. I see that it is ok to support a 100% push button war, where none of our soldiers are at risk. This is how I am reading it from the replies.

I apologize for upsetting anyone, and will not reply since my opinion is not desired nor being productive to your discussion. I will only reply if someone directs something to me in person.

One again my apologies
:asian:

 

[michaeledward]

If you are a non veteran and never served rent the movie "BlackHawk Down!", please!

You aren't seriously suggesting that as a citizen of the United States, my freedom of speech concerning the international affairs of our country, requires that I first watch a movie, are you?

How did Thomas Jefferson ever write the Constitution without Ridley Scott?

This suggestion weakens all of your other positions.

Peace - Mike

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi Rich, please don't feel that way. I really don't think those that oppose your views would think your opinion doesn't matter and that you are counter-productive to this conversation. After all, they served and fought for just the opposite reason, so you can voice your own opinion, speak out and not be punished. I think they would be the last ones to stifle you. As far as I go, I didn't serve in the armed forces, my Dad did. I just missed Vietnam, it was close though, and believe me at the time I was sweating bullets, lol, so to speak but I was not called. Often I feel guilty I didn't enlist, maybe that's a subconscience reason why later I joined the force. I even put in to be a police training adviser to the Iraq Police Force but they decided to take only chiefs of police and a guy I met once who is chief in a neighboring municipality was one of 20 that got it and he's there now and recently had a narrow brush with one of those RPG's. God bless him! I totally have the utmost respect for those who enlisted in Vietnam. At the time, the war was very unpopular in the school systems as I'm sure you're well aware of from history. There were demonstrations and the like of which I was totally against because it made the guys who went feel like the enemy. That's how the demonstrations were then. However, later in 1977 I began my public service and started my career in law enforcement of which I still proudly serve. Here's probably the 'friction' you feel in some of our posts. It's the same as being a police officer. We get upset when civillians second guess us, especially in life/death situations. Why? because we feel they shouldn't be 'talking the talk' because they never 'walked the walk'. Some people criticize us in a 'use of force' situation when they themselves have never gotten into a fight in their life! Another example is civillian police defensive tactics instructors. Many, the vast majority of cops won't give these people a chance no matter how good they are and why? The answer you'll get is "he's showing me how to take a guy down and put the handcuffs on him when he's never 'rolled around on the sidewalk' and did it himself?" This is probably what you're feeling but I feel those posting are simply trying to make you see their point and how they feel because they have a more hands on view of what really went down. It's like myself, I can tell you what's it's like to work the streets but I will never say I know what it feels like to be in Iraq right now. My Dad told me that if they ad a Sgt. who took them through hell and back over and over again and they sent some young Lt. to their platoon just out of West Point, well, on paper he was the boss, in actuality, he took a back seat to that Sgt. because that Sgt. 'made his bones', had done that, been there and the rookie Lt. knew that and didn't buck it. So, Rich, please, your input and opinions are appreciated and believe it or not, I do leave myself open to understand where you're coming from along with the others. Any time you make some one think, you're doing a good thing and you did make me think! Happy Thanksgiving, Respectfully, "Joe"

 

[Karazenpo]

Mike, we are not talkng about Thomas Jefferson. This is the 21st century and it's not just a movie. Believe me it isn't! I took the advise of Jay Sevrin, an extremely popular radio talk show host who used to work at the White House, I believe. He had suggested before the war in Iraq that we should see this movie. This is a true story, the movie was made to educate and get the word out rather than entertain, it was made to honor our soldiers and show the people what happens in these foreign conflicts when you're dealing with 'primitive barbarians'. See the movie, you'll know what I mean or take Rich's advice about the one hour documentary on the history channel!

 

[Karazenpo]

Question, have you ever been shot at? At close range? How many knives at one time have your fought against? How many people was a normal fight even if no weapons were visible is normal for your experience.

This is to Rich: Rich, yes I have and I shot back and its something I would only discuss either by private e-mail, in person or phone and would be inappropriate to deal with in an open forum. I have had more than one situation and it is all documented, no bullsh.t! Knives, too. My career spans over 27 years I worked the narcotics unit and the Southeastern Massachusetts Task Force. Please don't second guess me, I never bull...t anyone. What you see with me is what you get! Again, send me a private e-mail if you'd like to talk off the forum. Please respect and understand my reasons. Sincerely, Joe

 

[Rich Parsons]

Karazenpo,

You see, I did not serve. I did bounce and do security work. And this is how I see it. SOme part time police officer and even full time who has never worn a bullet resistant vest on duty, because he does not have too. Yet, he shows up where I am at and wants to take me to the police station because I only have bruises against four, five or even six guys. Yet, some of them have to go to the hospital. They do not understand the force I had to use to survive that moment. They do not understand what I was and was NOT thinking. They do not understand that when I call them I need their help. And when they get done their existing call and arrive, and the bad guy with the gun is gone, and all is alive, and I am told it was not a real gun by someone who was not there. I then asked this police officer, How do I know his gun is real, and his badge is real, he could be fake. BTW, was waling into him at them time. Why, I was still on the adrenaline rush. Still in combat mode. A Sgt pulled me off, and told me to calm down. I jsut turned to him and said please call the state police so I can file my report with an agency that cares.

So, when people who serve this great country and have never seen live action in the streets make comments that I do not understand comabat or Adrenline rush or even being addicted to Adrenaline, all beacuase they served in peace time and I never did serve.

Believe me I have extreme respect for anyone who served. Even if they did nothing but load the plane here in the US to send supplies over. They were and are doing a required job to keep people in place to face the enemy. And yes, they are the enemy, when they can shoot you.

Yet, you see, I had to live by the laws of this land. I could nto just beat someone up, for hitting one of my female employees. I had to fight in court and police stations over my rights to defend myself against people with guns, and with knives. Yet it is the law. I believe in the law and the US Constitution that generates and authorizes all of our laws. If I do not like something I have the right to try to change it. I do not have the right to break a law and expect no punsihment.

This was my point.

Believe me, in the heat of expectant combat, when people under you are going to die, and you can do something to get this dirt bag to talk. All you need is for this little dirt bag to talk and you can save lives and capture or kill the enemy. What Can I do? Time is running out. THis little S* Head would kill me in a minute, why do I care about anything that anyone has said in the past, THis is now. have people to save and people to lead into battle.

**BANG BANG **

Are you going to talk now?


I could see this happening. Heck I have been insituations where I had to strike a superior number of opponents first, before they pumped themselves up for the battle. SO, when one of the other guys went to hit himself and another one moved toward me. I Garbbed and choked him out. Others were shocked, I then proceded to wade into the group opposing me. I choose to that to survive the moment. I also had to pay for it later.

My Apologies for my Ramblings.

With Respect to those here and the Armed Serves
:asian:

 

[Karazenpo]

Rich, no ramblings at all, excellent post. Now I know a lot more of where you're coming from and a lot more about you and I'll say this. We may have opposing views on this issue but I'll tell you, after reading that post, we have a lot more in common then you can imagine,lol. Maybe we should talk privately someday, it would be very interesting to say the least. Hey, I gotta go eat my turkey now so I won't be on-line until tommoro, so have a good Thanksgiving and be safe, Sincerely, "Joe"

 

[Disco]

Age is not a prerequisite unto itself to determine qualified viewpoints. Opinions yes, but not judgements. Since the mantel of World's Police Officer has been bestowed upon America, (not saying it's right or wrong - just stating a fact), our people are always being put in harms way by the Politicans. We are in agreement that we feel this war was/is not fully justified under the guise of defending America proper. The military is subservient to the actions of the electorial and the politics at hand dictate the actions of the military. There is a catch 22 to all of this. The president is in fact the commander and chief of the military. Like anything else in the military, the officer in charge is to be held accountable for the actions of the subordinates. That's the way the UCMJ is interpeted. If the full intent of the law is to be inacted, then not only LC West but the president should be charged and held accountable. Will that happen? Sure, you bet, without question....... If anybody believes that, then I've got some ocean beach front property in Oklahoma for sale. Point being is what was stated prior. LC West is being used as a scapegoat to make Political America look good. Does anybody honestly think that the people we are engaged in leathal combat with give a tinkers damn about our self effacing judicial system?

You don't have to be in the military or worn a badge to see injustice. Those that serve just see it firsthand, close up and personal. It's easy to be detached when you are not physically and emotionally embroiled in life or death situations.

Rich, your opinion does matter. The part of society that has opposite views keeps things in balance. We actually need each other, but at somepoint we have to find a common ground for agreement, otherwise nothing gets accomplished and everything becomes stagnant. That's when as a society in general, we all become vulnerable to outside influenece's. A good example is what you referenced on the Ultra Right Wing Christian radio broadcasts. In my opinion, that's the politicans at work again. They allowed this to happen, for what reason I can't fathom. I can only see this as a detriment to the well being of our troops. I too would be inflamed with hatred if the opposite were to occur here. And yes our cities see plenty of urban warfare. Losts of shootings, stabbings and crime in general. So one dosen't have to be a soldier to be involved. The big difference here is that a soldier is required to stand and fight, a civilian is required to run away if possible. Even if you should be one of the 7 to 9 who support the front line soldier, at any given time you can be called to now be on the front line and you must respond. The specific questions you asked in the prior post (assume it was addressed towards me), my answer is yes to all. In depth is not required. Surfice to say I served and also wore the badge. What all this actually boils down to is a simple premise. I will attempt to use the Martial arts as an example. People in general view the arts with a lot of misunderstanding. Are we in general agreement on this statement? That misunderstanding changes with knowledge and knowledge is only attained by participating. I think we can all see the correlation. Rich, no appology necessary. It's your right as a free willed and free politically to express your views. :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I could argue this till the cows come home, have baths and hot cocoa, get a story, and drift off to dreamland.

Doesn't matter. I thought this country was supposed to stand for something, and I am distressed, a bit, to see that people are perfectly content to throw that ideal out the window.

So here's my last word on the topic:

A fig for the justification of torture, and I don't give a damn what the circumstances are.

 

[Disco]

I have finally come to a rational reason to be thankful for something other than me and mine. I am thankful for the absense of people (who choose to live in a utopian mindset), that they are not in positions of real power. What I don't understand is the fact that people on this site are (assuming) martial artists. We train for hand to hand combat and everybody has agreed that there are no rules in a real fight on the street. We have heard and read numerous times that everything is a target and your personal survival is paramount. Now here we have people that are distressed with the fact that someone didn't follow somebodies idea of fair play. If you are training in the arts and believe in so called fair play, your being hypocritical. I remember reading in history about Gen. Black Jack Pershing and what he did during the fighting in the Philippines. Nobody was screaming, off with his head and Oh what a bad officer - he should be removed and punished. Perhaps back then, people in general understood the value of saving our own. Anybody can justify in their own mind that detached actions by another is wrong. But just let that same person become attached or someone close to them become part of the action and watch how fast their viewpoints change. Opinions are welcomed, but a condescending attitude is not.

 

[Karazenpo]

Disco wrote this in response to some opposing viewpoints on 'the end justfying the means':

1) The end has allways justified the means. Look back, not glance back, but look back thru history. Just this subject could fill an entire thread and then some. Quick examples; The A-Bomb on Japan, Agent Orange in Nam, Not being allowed to bomb Hanoi (Sam City), The Civil war, The Indian wars, etc.

Now, I would like to elaborate on this a bit.

"THE END ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS IN TIMES OF WAR"

World War 2. Hiroshima & Nagasaki

2 atomic bombs dropped on civillian populace

Many innocent men, women & children killed

The End: 500,000 to 1,000,000 U.S. soldiers lives saved.


"THE END ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS IN TIMES OF WAR"

Perhaps, if President Truman took the opposing stand and didn't do what he did some on this forum reading this today
may not have ever existed because their father, mother or
grandfather serving would have been one of those 500,000 to
1,000,000! Now, how can anyone argue that? In closing I was telling my Dad yesterday of some of the opinions on Lt. Col. West. He was disgusted and stated in WW2, his C.O's would have done and had done a lot worse than that if they knew the enemy held key information that would could take a company of soldiers out of harm's way. This is not and never will be a perfect world and sometimes you do what you have to do to take care of your own, what man wouldn't? Respectfully submitted.

PS: Excellent posts, Disco.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hm.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Well, I could argue this till the cows come home, have baths and hot cocoa, get a story, and drift off to dreamland.

Doesn't matter. I thought this country was supposed to stand for something, and I am distressed, a bit, to see that people are perfectly content to throw that ideal out the window.

So here's my last word on the topic:

A fig for the justification of torture, and I don't give a damn what the circumstances are.

Robert,
I'm not going to try to justify tourture; however, once we have allowed ourselves to become targets with no means of gathering information from our captives. Why take captives at all? Sounds as if we should just kill them on sight and devote our energies elsewhere. That would be the legal way to go, but I doubt it is more moral. I'm with you though, this guy has to go down or the US Loses face.
Sean

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Disco,

Originally posted by Disco
I have finally come to a rational reason to be thankful for something other than me and mine. I am thankful for the absense of people (who choose to live in a utopian mindset), that they are not in positions of real power. What I don't understand is the fact that people on this site are (assuming) martial artists. We train for hand to hand combat and everybody has agreed that there are no rules in a real fight on the street. We have heard and read numerous times that everything is a target and your personal survival is paramount.

In Combat, I have teh assumption that soldiers are allowd to fire, and or stab or break arms/legs and necks as needed. This is Combat. On the street it is the same.

No let me ask, if you quit fighting on the street, and I tie you up and take you back to my hide out and then proceed to beat the crap out of you. This is not combat. This is not for survival. On the streets, you will find to suvivalist who will take honor in this deed. You will find no law officer or DA who says that YES you were still defending yourself.

Now, if during the battle you did a foot sweep and the bad guy went down and hit his head and was either a vegetable or dead, most people would ask for the trial, but would expect for you to be found innocent for your self defense.

In Combat, if they had shot him, and he started yelling that he hadinformation to give them to not shoot him again. I would see no problem with this.

There are rules of engagement, and of force use for both our Military and for our Civilian police officers and also for the citizens. If you ignore them then the government that has protected you, is expected to also prosecute you to protect the ideas of this country and also the other citizens.

Do, I for one believe this Lt Col should see 8 Years? No way. Do I think he should retire? Yes. My Opinion. Now should he loose, all of his pension for his service up to this point? No Way. Once again My Opinion.

Originally posted by Disco

Now here we have people that are distressed with the fact that someone didn't follow somebodies idea of fair play. If you are training in the arts and believe in so called fair play, your being hypocritical. I remember reading in history about Gen. Black Jack Pershing and what he did during the fighting in the Philippines. Nobody was screaming, off with his head and Oh what a bad officer - he should be removed and punished. Perhaps back then, people in general understood the value of saving our own.

Well I do not think I am a hypocrit, for the above reasons I posted. I Also think that there were no treaties in affect at the time that prohibited such action. Yes, the Spanish American War was a horrible little war, that the USA went into trying to get land and build an empire. We also treated American Indians like dirt. Even breaking our own Treaties with them. Was this right? Oh we got around it by pushing them to the breaking point where they would attack and then of course we had to go in and retaliate and teach them another lesson, and take their land that we wanted now.

Originally posted by Disco

Anybody can justify in their own mind that detached actions by another is wrong. But just let that same person become attached or someone close to them become part of the action and watch how fast their viewpoints change. Opinions are welcomed, but a condescending attitude is not.

As I stated before, I have never served. I have what I would call in my opinion street action, and times when I did not know if I was going to survive. I did what I had to do, most of the time. Yet even when I was out numbered 5 or 6 to one or even more. I took them out in a maner that tehy were still alive, and not dead. You see, the police do not like bodies that cannot respond. It makes all the paperwork oh so much more.

As to Attitude, that is why I left this thread the first time, Because I was presented with an attitude that my opinion was not wanted. That I did not understand. That was this little civilian who was monday morning arm chairing an event. I was told I was wrong, and that I had no place. What about these attitudes?
I could pull out the Mod Card and tell you all to go play nice, yet what would that solve. Nothing. This is personal to many of you, It is personal to me on other levels. Yet, I feel just as much condescending attitude from you sir, about your postition as I do from anyone.

Were you spit on, while you walked through protesters of ODShield and the later ODStorm? Just to get to your job? Did your car gat kicked, and did people threaten yuo just so you could go to work to build a better M1A2 tank for our men in the field? DId you work on a Better Fox NBCRS Vehicle to detect the Nuclear/Biological/Chemical Reconaisance Systems?

So, in your mind, I should have stopped gotten out of my car, and walked up to these people and just killed them because they spit on me or my car, kicked my fender. When the law clearly states that I had no right to escalate the level of violence up to that level. In matter of fact I was supposed to call the police. Yet the police all get bent when a civilian takes the law into his/her own hands. Almost like they take it personally. You cannot have it both ways, in my opinion that would be hypocritical.

So Disco, is my condenscending tone not welcome again? Or should I go enlist, and watch some real combat movies to get a better idea of what it is all about. Since you replied yes to all my questions I would assume that we can talk since by using your logic, you have meet my requirements of similar situations to understand my point of view. Yet like I said I may not have enough to talk to you?


Let me reiterate something.

In Combat anything goes. In Questioning a prisoner there are rules and international laws. In questioning a suspect, there are rules also. If a police officer was to get into a scuffle and then the bad guy gets restrained. Yes, there will be questiosn about the bruises. It sucks, yet the system is their to prevent the bad cop from abusing is power and authority, as opposed to the good police officers who beleive in their responsibilities. This good officer may have to answer questions on why this guy has a bruise.

Heck I know an officer that was on leave until the DA decided to clear him on a shooting. He showed up during the fire fight. He was able to fire and hit the bad guy. He had to be cleared. He had to prove he did not know this guy or had prior relations he had to prove that he did not wish ill intent. No one questioned that he was being fired upon. No questioned he took a clear shoot. And yes he hit center mass, to the point that the bad guy knew he was in trouble and shot himself in the head, so as to not be taken alive. He was cleared, yet he had to go through the procedure. Why to avoid the Bad cops being given free reign.

Have you ever been beaten by a Cop? I have have. And All good police officers (* And I know many *) are going to reply he must have done something to deserve it. Yes there was a car with two guys a beige 1977 Buick Regal, with Landau top that were doing lawn jobs in the rich neighborhood. I was with four otehr guys in a 1980 White Oldsmobile Delta 88 Regal. Now White to Beige could be an easy mistake. Two guys to five, could be someoen did nto see everyone. The real big issue is that the Regal was a two door, and the Olds was a four door and about two feet bigger. Also we were in a total different neighborhood then the crimes. I looked older, only because I was taller and had facial hair. The officer asked me, as he as questioning each one of us with out coats in February, since coats could hiude weapons, and the windows of our car had to be down so as to avoid steam on the windows, he asked me How Old are You? I said Sixteen, Sir. He replied Idiot your Seventeen. I said, No Sir, in September I will be Seventeen Sir. I then proceded to take on in the ribs. Did I mention that my hands were being held behind me by another officer. As I doubled over, I took a knee to the face. I tried to colapse to the ground I did not even try to free my hands. Yet the knee kind of stook me up. I to two shoots to the kidneys. One from a diiferent cop each. As I was fallen forward I then took another fist shoot to the face as the original officer cleared his pistol. As I was a young Punk in the wrong nighborhood identified by witness, the police defense, and I had resisted and cause tried to get physical, and it was my single word against six police officers. It did not go anywhere. The driver was also issues a speeding ticket for not speeding yet, it justified the pull over. After a total of an hour plus of freezing in the cold I was thrown into the back of a police car wiht hand cuffs (* Because I am a dangerous person *) and the cop yelled at me and told me to not not move, to not talk and to not breath, So I laid there with my head against the cage and my legs out the door, until the oficer of the vehicel came over and said, you can sit up punk. I slowly moved into a sitting position. I did not say a word. This officer then started talking to me. After a few minutes of no responce he told me I could respond. You see I was taking the Cops word of nto talking. You see that wanted all of to confess to do the vandleism. And, I had times and locations of where we were and who to ask for verifications. This seemed to upset the poilce more. I was lectured by many of them to not call them sir. I was trying to be respectful. So, this officer of the car I was in, started asking me questions. I answered as I had all night long. He asked me then why are we even talking to us, and why had I tried to swing at the other cop. I replied I never took my hands from my back until I was falling. He was very confused.

In the end the let us go. Want to know why. They threatened to take us in call our parents. At that point I replied (* Sarcastically, hell I already been beat up *) I asked for that before. I believe my parents woudl like to know why this happened to me. You see, after almost two hours they realized or suspected they might have the wrong people. Interesting concept. Yet, they tought they were doing the right thing.

I could never, get recourse on this issue.

So, would you like to come back to a country that supports this? for your children and grand children. That any officer can pull them over and beat them and freeze them and refuse minors access to their parents? This is why there are checks and balances, and rules and laws. I may not like them, and if I dislike them enough I try to change them from within the system. I do not go out side the system.

So, once again, I apologize for my Attitude and Condenscending Opinions to those who will not take a step back and take a deep breath and realize that, that is not my intention.

I am expressing my opinions, and using the system as it stands to show reasons why my opinions are the way I believe. You can disagree. You can not reply. You can put me on the ignore list. Please do not call me names, and insult me about living in Utopia. I live where I live and do not believe in a perfect world. I know from experience that it is not. This is why I beleive in the existing system of a jury trial to prove your case.

With Respect to those here and to those that have and are, and will serve this country.
:asian: