The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu
- Thread starter windwalker099
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Same Trick
Blue Belt
Yet so many frown at taijiquan training methods and only want to learn the hard way 
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
We trained concurrently in both when I started. My Sifu said we trained both to end up with Tai Chi Chuan legs and Southern gung fu arms. It’s important to be able to do both and use them interchangeably, just like I see a lot of people that only practice the Tai Chi form to the right and don’t even realize it’s important to do it to the left as well. I think most people are impatient and just want the next thing, the next technique, the next rank etc.Yet so many frown at taijiquan training methods and only want to learn the hard way
OP
OP
windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
In my own Taiji journey, I progressed from practicing Tung/Dong Taiji to my current practice, which is based on the teachings of my last Taiji teacher.
When learning the "Tung" style, we initially did not practice both sides. However, sometimes during practice, the Shifu would lead us in performing the solo form on the opposite side. Interestingly, no one seemed to have any issues with this adjustment.
My current Taiji practice follows a principle-based approach taught by my last teacher Master Zhang Youngliang.
In this approach, movements are used to develop and reinforce fundamental principles rather than being the ultimate goal of the practice.
Over time, the specific movements can be set aside because any movement performed becomes a natural expression of the practiced principles.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
An interesting way of looking at it. I think this is a valid and useful attitude to have as one method of practice and can aid in developing the fundamental principles of various MA systems. After all, technique devoid of fundamental principles will not be effective/efficient. And, as you say, once the principles are internally ingrained, they will be outwardly reflected.
On the other hand, principles themselves are only theoretical potential needing technique to express themselves. Poor technique execution will not be able to properly translate the principles into action. And it is thru physical execution that the principles can be tested and refined and put to work! So, both are equally important and must be practiced and developed in parallel.
Technique-principles. Technique-principles. Back and forth till the parallel lines converge. IMO, this happens to a significant degree at the 2nd-3rd dan levels most of the time. Full convergence of these parallels (depending on your view of curved space) may never occur and provide a life-long journey to the martial artist.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Agree with that second bit entirely. The forms are there to create a habit of foundational principles of movement. My analogy is music, first we learn the instrument and its parts and then we learn notes, scales, chords, rhythms, and eventually the music of others (forms). When we can create our own music spontaneously, we don’t abandon the principles, we express them with virtuous harmony.
OP
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windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
I have gone through this process while creating my own Taiji method.
I concluded that creating a completely new method was not possible because my practice still relied on specific movements, despite the principles they embodied.
The distinction lies in whether the practice acts as a conductor of energy or as the originator of the energy. This highlights the fundamental difference between internal and external based approaches.
One is not better than the other, as all Chinese martial arts are internal by nature. However, the expression and training can be quite different based on these distinctions.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
I agree with you to an extent, principle alone only implies a higher level of practice. As you say 2nd-3rd Dan level.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
In your Tung style Solo form, how many postures are there, and how long would you typically spend to complete the form at your most common speed? I have only practiced variations of Yang style. In James Wing Woo version is 138 and average is approximately 40 minutes. In some classes Sifu would slow us to 55 minutes. Many people ( including myself ) initially had trouble learning to go left in solo form without a leader.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
I am currently learning YangJwingMing’s 2 man Taiji fighting set. I am enjoying it very much.
OP
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windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
I stopped practicing it long ago as I moved on to other Tai Chi methods that were more suited to what I was looking for.
At the time, the gym was located in a school cafeteria in downtown Honolulu, Hawaii.
If memory serves me, I believe it took around 45 minutes to complete.
They also taught the fast sets, as well as weapon and two-man sets, along with many different types of "推手" (Tuī Shǒu) exercises.
Started the practice in search of deeper insights into my CMA practice.
Eventually, finding what I was looking for, much later, taiji as taught by my last teacher would
become my main and only practice.
If you train like in this video, you will never have left-right sides issue. I'm still not sure which way is better.
1. Train right side 10 time, then train left side 10 times.
2. Train right side, left side, right side, left side, ... for 20 times.
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OP
OP
windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
If you train like in this video, you will never have left-right sides issue. I'm still not sure which way is better.
1. Train right side 10 time, then train left side 10 times.
2. Train right side, left side, right side, left side, ... for 20 times.
Historically, Taiji started as a single-movement practice.
This could be considered the traditional way, based on functionality.
With the advent of modern practices, the focus has shifted more towards performance, with functionality measured through performance, and skill set 推手" (Tuī Shǒu) "
rather than application "fighting"
Modern times, a different focus.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Which one is that? Which is your only practice now? Why did you choose it over previous methods?
OP
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windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
In my own path, I studied the 37-step form under Professor Ken Wen Chi (亓冠文).
This method and form were quite different from the Tung style.
Much later, I met my last teacher in Beijing, Master Zhang Yongliang. After meeting him, dropped all previous practices to follow his method. Looking back, each method was a deeper step towards something from within.
Whether I found it or it found me is hard to say.
Master Zhang, once mentioned to me that once you reach a certain level of understanding, you can name your practice whatever you want. Following his advice, I call my practice "Taiji," reflecting his methods according to my current level and skill.
For those interested...
Empirical based taiji practice theory and usage
Reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Youngliang,
and other noted masters of taiji.
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isshinryuronin
Senior Master
It can be hard to tell the difference. If you have an understanding of the art so you can recognize that special something when you come across it and are a willing vessel, a meeting will take place. Whether you found it, or it found you is of little importance and irrelevant. More likely it was mutual attraction.
Appledog
Green Belt
I noticed a lot of moves in there from other martial arts. What about the shoving and pushing at 2:20 and 2:40.. Is that really tai chi too?
But that is a bit of a red herring. What about the other pushing that is from other arts, and shown in the guise of tai chi? Is that really fair to people trying to learn Tai Chi? The grappling at 3:29? This used to be called cheating the students.
Look at 3:45. Hand on the back of the neck. Does that look familiar? This doesn't come from tai chi.. But people don't know, because they are not exposed to a wider community. These people, if they're not doing tai chi, what are they doing, and why is it being shown in a tai chi video?
Most of the video shows the same kind of goat-butting as this. 8:35. This is just force against force.
8:55 even when there is a pretense of some kind of actual push hands, look at the ego rising up as he shoves the guy. From then on all pretense of tai chi push hands goes out the window and its shove-wrestling.
Categorically, this is a huge problem in the tai chi community and people who practice this way will not make progress in Tai Chi.
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_Simon_
Senior Master
This really piqued my interest! I vaguely think I know what you might mean, but would you mind elaborating on this a bit more? Thanks so much
OP
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windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
Wondering if you understood what you watched.
The video presented different methods of practice by various individuals, the commentator, presenting his perspective on the practice of softness.
The huge problem in the Taiji community might be the many who feel they have reached a certain level of understanding equate this understanding through writing, not by doing.
Small story:
In 1993, there was an AAU Chinese martial arts tournament, with Phillip Starr as the director at the time. Doc Fai Wong, a friend of mine, was one of the judges for the Taiji and push hands competitions. The event was hosted by a local “拳道” (Kuntao) gym, a Hakka art.
The push hands event was open to all stylists. None of the Taiji stylists, including myself, placed in the event.
Notably, the guy I lost to came up to me later and said, “Out of all the people here, you're the only one who knows Taiji.”
Doc Fai later commented on my performance, “Your sticking and following are good, but you do not understand how to release yet.”
I did take 1st place in the Taiji forms competition using the 37-step at the time.
My point is that it’s not a problem for those with Taiji skill sets versus those without or not developed, commenting on what they see.
Those with the skill sets, understanding what they see, those developing them, or not understanding, tend to look for what they expect to see, commenting on what they don't.
Not a fan of push hands competition, although I understand the allure and need for it.
In Taiwan, many groups focus on local and national events. Having practiced with some of them, a good way to test oneself and make new taiji friends. It was quite interesting as most were not able to apply the method they practiced in our interactions.
One might ask why.
I’d say because the focus was on winning the event, not on developing Taiji skill sets that can be used outside of the context of push hands.
Another example:
Within a context, even someone quite skilled may not be able to apply their skill effectively.
"推手" (Tuī Shǒu)
In my practice, it’s a training method that helps distinguish the use of force from non-force.
For others, it may serve different purposes.
I don't regard it as the main defining aspect of Taiji practice.
Many can push, fighting is not about pushing.
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