I have heard it decried that the education system in this country is a mess. Please list the reason for this and some solutions.
:jedi1:
upnorthkyosa
:jedi1:
upnorthkyosa
The Education Crisis
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #2
Is increased federal involvement in education ruining the system?
Would a return to local control help?
How about standardized tests?
My feeling on these is that they pretty much lay out what you need to know to do a job, but they don't teach you how to critically think. There is no standardized test out there that can measure that. So what is more important, basic skills or critical thought? What should be the emphasis?
Maybe someone can elighten, but didn't both used to get taught in our school system?
Would a return to local control help?
How about standardized tests?
My feeling on these is that they pretty much lay out what you need to know to do a job, but they don't teach you how to critically think. There is no standardized test out there that can measure that. So what is more important, basic skills or critical thought? What should be the emphasis?
Maybe someone can elighten, but didn't both used to get taught in our school system?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
I was thinking about some of the things that rmcrobertson said regarding education and about how, when he was a kid, they taught a lot more then they do now. He has claimed that the attitude toward education back in the 50-60s was totally different. Can anyone elaborate? That is certainly before my time.
Also, I just noticed Ender sig, two good parents are better then 100 teachers. Is that the difference between the old days and the new?
Also, I just noticed Ender sig, two good parents are better then 100 teachers. Is that the difference between the old days and the new?
michaeledward
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High-stakes tests are certainly crippling the education system. In Massachusetts, a passing grade on the MCAS test is required to receive a high-school diploma.
I am pulling these statistics from memory and they could very well be way off but ...
In the class of 2003, approximately 13 % of those completing 12 years of public schooling were unable to secure a passing grade.
In the class of 2004, that number had changed to 4% of the graduating class.
What could account for this change? I can think only of 'Teaching to the Test'. Which means, instead of focusing on a quality general education, which could be a launching ground for continued education, vocation education, military service, or a traditional 'blue collar' job, educators of covering test taking skills; eliminating obvious incorrect answers, choosing the best of what is left, which leaves a student equipped for very little. (Incidentally, of the 4% of students unable to pass the MCAS this year ... the vast majority are hispanic and african american ... which means that 'Affirmative Action' obviously doesn't work and should be ended(yeah .. that is sarcasm)).
This being said ... I think the biggest crisis in Education is that our community as a whole does not whole-heartedly support the idea of a 'General Education' for all. To many of us, who no longer have children in the education system feel we should not pay for others children to get an education. We think that 'vouchers' and 'choice' are the answer.
But, these choices are the 'Hooray for Me and To Hell with Everybody Else' type of choices that are not the answer.
My two cents ... I may elaborate more later.
Mike
I am pulling these statistics from memory and they could very well be way off but ...
In the class of 2003, approximately 13 % of those completing 12 years of public schooling were unable to secure a passing grade.
In the class of 2004, that number had changed to 4% of the graduating class.
What could account for this change? I can think only of 'Teaching to the Test'. Which means, instead of focusing on a quality general education, which could be a launching ground for continued education, vocation education, military service, or a traditional 'blue collar' job, educators of covering test taking skills; eliminating obvious incorrect answers, choosing the best of what is left, which leaves a student equipped for very little. (Incidentally, of the 4% of students unable to pass the MCAS this year ... the vast majority are hispanic and african american ... which means that 'Affirmative Action' obviously doesn't work and should be ended(yeah .. that is sarcasm)).
This being said ... I think the biggest crisis in Education is that our community as a whole does not whole-heartedly support the idea of a 'General Education' for all. To many of us, who no longer have children in the education system feel we should not pay for others children to get an education. We think that 'vouchers' and 'choice' are the answer.
But, these choices are the 'Hooray for Me and To Hell with Everybody Else' type of choices that are not the answer.
My two cents ... I may elaborate more later.
Mike
Without looking at the federal involvement and just focusing on local verses state, it really is a mess. Here in OH, the local governments do pretty good, but when things go bad, the state steps in and things go worse. To top it all off the state's supreme court has labeled the systems as unconstitutional three times over 6 years and the governor blatantly and publicly refuses to take any action to resolve the situation.
Then there is the whole issue of underfunding. Teachers despite the listing as one of the most underpaid proffessions in the country continue to be underpaid, and funds specifically allocated to schools, like lottery profits, are constantly redirected and used as a slush fund for the state.
Then there is the whole issue of underfunding. Teachers despite the listing as one of the most underpaid proffessions in the country continue to be underpaid, and funds specifically allocated to schools, like lottery profits, are constantly redirected and used as a slush fund for the state.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
The fact that many of these scientists are moving back
to their countries of origin is also a good explanation
for the outsourcing of technical jobs to other
countries. There are very skilled scientists in those
countries, many of those trained in the US, and they are
cheaper to pay then those in our country. So what is
the solution? This might not be a very popular idea,
but perhaps we should be spending as much on our upper
level students as we spend on our lower level students.
Perhaps gifted children need IEPs and need to be placed
in gifted programs, even gifted schools. My first
instinct is to strike this idea down as elitist and
unfair to the masses, yet the reality of the situation
is that all children are not born with the same ability.
There are those who are challenged and there are those
who are gifted. The question becomes, are we doing
enough for them? I can already hear the lefty answer,
"they will be successful no matter what happens, we need
to focus on helping those at the bottom."
I can't say that I totally disagree with that sentiment
either.
to their countries of origin is also a good explanation
for the outsourcing of technical jobs to other
countries. There are very skilled scientists in those
countries, many of those trained in the US, and they are
cheaper to pay then those in our country. So what is
the solution? This might not be a very popular idea,
but perhaps we should be spending as much on our upper
level students as we spend on our lower level students.
Perhaps gifted children need IEPs and need to be placed
in gifted programs, even gifted schools. My first
instinct is to strike this idea down as elitist and
unfair to the masses, yet the reality of the situation
is that all children are not born with the same ability.
There are those who are challenged and there are those
who are gifted. The question becomes, are we doing
enough for them? I can already hear the lefty answer,
"they will be successful no matter what happens, we need
to focus on helping those at the bottom."
I can't say that I totally disagree with that sentiment
either.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
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- Mar 1, 2003
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What would happen if the 40 million Southern Baptists withdrew from the Public School system?
In the past couple of days, they voted to withdraw from the 'Too Liberal' Worldwide Baptist Convention. Also mentioned at the conference was the idea of withdrawing from the United States Public Education system.
So, let's say that some 10 million Southern Baptists pull their children out of public school ... might they then withhold there local tax payments (as local taxes are primarily used to fund school systems) ... might that cripple local governements ... won't state governments (which often have constitutional obligations to provide education for the resident children) have to react in some manner to this behavior?
I am not trying to be a doom sayer ... but this way lies civil war, in my opinion.
Fortuneately, the Southern Baptists have seldom been able to act in accord ... seems that Disney boycott didn't accoplish much a few years back.
Mike
In the past couple of days, they voted to withdraw from the 'Too Liberal' Worldwide Baptist Convention. Also mentioned at the conference was the idea of withdrawing from the United States Public Education system.
So, let's say that some 10 million Southern Baptists pull their children out of public school ... might they then withhold there local tax payments (as local taxes are primarily used to fund school systems) ... might that cripple local governements ... won't state governments (which often have constitutional obligations to provide education for the resident children) have to react in some manner to this behavior?
I am not trying to be a doom sayer ... but this way lies civil war, in my opinion.
Fortuneately, the Southern Baptists have seldom been able to act in accord ... seems that Disney boycott didn't accoplish much a few years back.
Mike
- Joined
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I just got one daughter throught the "education" system and into 1 3/4 years of private college before she fell apart. I have a son who will be a senior next year. I have been pretty involved in their education since I elected to stay at home when my daughter went into sixth grade. She knew how to read before she went into kindergarden. She knew her abc's at three... So, how is it that when she hit college she couldn't write to a sixth grade level? There were so many times that I went in to see her teachers in elementary school. I never saw ANY homework assigned for home. The grammar/reading/spelling was condensed into ONE "DOL" daily oral language SENTENCE, which they had to rewrite and correct commas, capitals, spelling. That was it. No reading in class, no spelling tests, no language book, doing exercises in commas, etc. like I had to do. I went to school 1950-60s. I remember my third grade teacher giving weekly spelling tests of 50 words. I remember because I got really upset that I couldn't spell. She taught me to spell and I to this day really don't know how she did it but she did. I went on to win the county spelling contest in junior high. The point is that it is not like it used to be. They have added on all this other STUFF that they have to teach that the basics were not being taught. Well, I talked to EVERY English teacher since throughout junior high and high school. They usually said they were confident that their system will work and that my daughter would pass the reading test. That's all they were worried about. I was worried that she hated reading no matter how much I made her do it. I read what she wrote and tried to teach her with what few "writing" assignments she had. When I went to school, from sixth grade on, we had to do book reports. It pretty much made you READ because you had to write a detailed report and it provided experience in writing. Besides those reports had to be corrected and turned back in. Instead, our schools system wanted a computer quiz on reading a book. There was a limited number of books to choose from and the quizzes changed. Except they didn't ask about the conflict of the story, the plot, about the characters etc. They asked what did who wear, what was the date when this happened, a bunch of details. So, 10 questions, you miss four, you fail. And not much forward movement. Made both my kids not want to read, they felt like failures. So they read short easier books to pass the quizzes. So, I said to her English teacher in junior high, instead of putting on a play that takes three weeks and has a cast of 200, why don't you teach them grammar or how to read? She said the play was important but I noticed they had three weeks of grammar after that. My daughter was wondering what I had said to her teacher. That teacher is now responsible for changing the English curriculum in the schools to go back to basics. Yet she defended their hands on posters and plays to me.
Junior high had a hands on curriculum supposedly to get the kids to think in different ways. Each subject class, science, math assigned special projects to work on their profiles of learning requirements. If you make a game about LalaLand, cities, trees etc. you get an A. Marker up a poster for science - just do a graph already in a book. get an A. I don't know how many posters, games, field trips for the benefit of the community like picking up trash that they did. They consumed alot of valuable time. Now they have gone back to basics, more basic standards tests are being done for each grade so they have to teach for the tests. Well, it was too late for my kids.
My son can't write either and he will be graduating next year. But he passed his reading and writing test --whatever that was????
BTW My daughter had to go to ther college's resource center repeatedly for help to write, but she failed research writing twice anyway. Sadly I probably would have given her more help than what she was getting there. But there was too much she needed to know by the time she got to college. Now that was a private college, I understand they have dumbed it real down for state college.
Hey she's getting A's now at a community college-not Minnesota. (don't know whether to sigh or not). And Minnesota was supposed to have a good educational system. Hope they are getting it straightened out now...
Junior high had a hands on curriculum supposedly to get the kids to think in different ways. Each subject class, science, math assigned special projects to work on their profiles of learning requirements. If you make a game about LalaLand, cities, trees etc. you get an A. Marker up a poster for science - just do a graph already in a book. get an A. I don't know how many posters, games, field trips for the benefit of the community like picking up trash that they did. They consumed alot of valuable time. Now they have gone back to basics, more basic standards tests are being done for each grade so they have to teach for the tests. Well, it was too late for my kids.
My son can't write either and he will be graduating next year. But he passed his reading and writing test --whatever that was????
BTW My daughter had to go to ther college's resource center repeatedly for help to write, but she failed research writing twice anyway. Sadly I probably would have given her more help than what she was getting there. But there was too much she needed to know by the time she got to college. Now that was a private college, I understand they have dumbed it real down for state college.
Hey she's getting A's now at a community college-not Minnesota. (don't know whether to sigh or not). And Minnesota was supposed to have a good educational system. Hope they are getting it straightened out now...
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
In the particular case you mention, the problem is far too many goddamn basics. Your daughter was getting drilled endlessly on spelling grammar, and the rest of the mechanics--she did not read books and essays, and write meaningfully about them; she did exercises. She did not learn about ideas and expressingh her own thoughts; she practiced to take tests. Much of this crap came out of nutbar, "back to basics," campaigns.
Moreover, what she read has been censored and censored and censored. Part of the reason she didn't learn to write logically is that little things like Darwin were removed from the curriculum. She didn't learn to love language, because they took out books like "Huck Finn," and "Romeo and Juliet," because parents objected. She didn't read any of the exciting new things that have come out recently from writers like Maurice Sendak or Judy Blume or Richard Rodriguez or Adrienne Rich or Toni Morrison or Susan Straight, because, "they're controversial."
So, my friends who teach in high school tell me that they have to teach "Romeo and Juliet," but they are not allowed to mention a) premarital sex, b) rebellion against parents, c) violence, d) the musical "West Side Story." My college students tell me they had to read, "Black Boy," but they were told to stop at page 112, because on page 113 Richard Wright says that joining the Communist Party (which he later dumped) woke him up.
Then too, schools of education chronically suck, teachers are often inept, cowardly or both, parents' groups are frequently insane, the paperwork is madness, and our society is too cheap and too chicken to really educate kids.
But other than that, everything's fine.
Moreover, what she read has been censored and censored and censored. Part of the reason she didn't learn to write logically is that little things like Darwin were removed from the curriculum. She didn't learn to love language, because they took out books like "Huck Finn," and "Romeo and Juliet," because parents objected. She didn't read any of the exciting new things that have come out recently from writers like Maurice Sendak or Judy Blume or Richard Rodriguez or Adrienne Rich or Toni Morrison or Susan Straight, because, "they're controversial."
So, my friends who teach in high school tell me that they have to teach "Romeo and Juliet," but they are not allowed to mention a) premarital sex, b) rebellion against parents, c) violence, d) the musical "West Side Story." My college students tell me they had to read, "Black Boy," but they were told to stop at page 112, because on page 113 Richard Wright says that joining the Communist Party (which he later dumped) woke him up.
Then too, schools of education chronically suck, teachers are often inept, cowardly or both, parents' groups are frequently insane, the paperwork is madness, and our society is too cheap and too chicken to really educate kids.
But other than that, everything's fine.
jeffbeish
Blue Belt
Simple, just call an office in or out of government and talk with someone who can spell beyond the word cat. If you do find such a person then put them on hold and pray they are still on the job for the next question what planet do you live on. The results reflect the education system.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #11
One of the things I hear from other science teachers is that there backrooms are stuffed with all sorts of broken down old equipment and has been collecting dust for 30 years. So, I decided to do an experiment. I took my students at the alternative school and we offered to clean out their closets. Then we took the equipment back to my classroom and analyzed the various peices. Much of it was junk and ended up in the trash. Not after we laughed about it though. Some of it though...here is a short list of some items we found; A cloud chamber, a first generation cyclotron, and a geiger counter. We repaired all of that equipment and learned what it did and then I asked my students why students 35-40 years ago had state of the art equipment in their classrooms while I have rubber bands and duct tape.
The truth is that the government used to care about education. Science and math in particular. In fact, some old teachers that I know remember a time when the government paid for them to go to college and get advanced degrees to teach the up and coming citizenry. Its all gone down hill since then. The money has gone and the public has turned its eye away from the future to what is most profitable now. Education takes time and we have lost our patience as a country.
To a certain extent, I agree with some parts of No Child Left Behind. The part where they attempt to get qualified teachers in every classroom again is a noble effort. But there is no money to help districts accomplish this and teachers who are unqualified have been teaching for so long that they have a lot of weight. Its going to take a massive, concerted, effort to change this and people need to realize this.
Other aspects of NTSB are maddening. The testing, the blue ribbon schools, the supposed accountability and the assumption that all kids are taught equally. The quality of education has pretty much always followed class in this country. If you have the most, you get the best, which isn't really fair, in my opinion, because without good education there is no opportunity to change ones position in society.
The truth is that the government used to care about education. Science and math in particular. In fact, some old teachers that I know remember a time when the government paid for them to go to college and get advanced degrees to teach the up and coming citizenry. Its all gone down hill since then. The money has gone and the public has turned its eye away from the future to what is most profitable now. Education takes time and we have lost our patience as a country.
To a certain extent, I agree with some parts of No Child Left Behind. The part where they attempt to get qualified teachers in every classroom again is a noble effort. But there is no money to help districts accomplish this and teachers who are unqualified have been teaching for so long that they have a lot of weight. Its going to take a massive, concerted, effort to change this and people need to realize this.
Other aspects of NTSB are maddening. The testing, the blue ribbon schools, the supposed accountability and the assumption that all kids are taught equally. The quality of education has pretty much always followed class in this country. If you have the most, you get the best, which isn't really fair, in my opinion, because without good education there is no opportunity to change ones position in society.
jeffbeish
Blue Belt
If you really want to know what happened to our education system then read some of what Marx and Engles had in store for us. I suspect it is available in most any library in the religious left section. I attained an education when government involvement in education as local. Yes, I was trained to understand Marx and Engles we aspired to kill them.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Bad news, dude--didn't read any Marx and Engels until I hit college and European Intellectual History class.
Sorry, but M&E and Paolo Friere just don't have much impact on American education, fashionable as it has become to say so.
What's much more of an influence, intellectually speaking, is dumb and badly-trained teachers cranking out dumb-and badly-trained students who can (often) pass completely-worthless tests mandated by dumb and badly-trained politicians on behalf of dumb and badly-trained, overworked, over-stressed, communities.
Oh, and waste and corrption and politicking by "principals," and "School Board members."
Oh yes, and stupid nonsense like loyalty oaths for teachers, fingerprinting for teachers (I've been printed...let's see...nine times out here in California...$75 a pop...law was designed to catch child molesters...wanna guess who I was teaching the ONE time I got a summer teaching job and WASN'T printed?), rules about teaching evolution, School Board complaints about some alternate reading list material...and of course...the one thing that will solve all school problems...making sure that kids do the rewritten Pledge every morning.
Sorry, but M&E and Paolo Friere just don't have much impact on American education, fashionable as it has become to say so.
What's much more of an influence, intellectually speaking, is dumb and badly-trained teachers cranking out dumb-and badly-trained students who can (often) pass completely-worthless tests mandated by dumb and badly-trained politicians on behalf of dumb and badly-trained, overworked, over-stressed, communities.
Oh, and waste and corrption and politicking by "principals," and "School Board members."
Oh yes, and stupid nonsense like loyalty oaths for teachers, fingerprinting for teachers (I've been printed...let's see...nine times out here in California...$75 a pop...law was designed to catch child molesters...wanna guess who I was teaching the ONE time I got a summer teaching job and WASN'T printed?), rules about teaching evolution, School Board complaints about some alternate reading list material...and of course...the one thing that will solve all school problems...making sure that kids do the rewritten Pledge every morning.
I heard someone (a keynote speaker) say that the educational system in this country is a joke. "That the system is based on grades. There should be no grades. What are they good for? To judge whether or not they can be controlled..." Hearing that (to me) made sense. Controlled by whom? Government? Society? Hmm...
We do need to vamp up our educational level expectations for our children. They're smarter than we give credit for and they're certianly more capable than we give credit for. It shouldn't be so that they're forced to excel beyond their own individual capabilities but when they're young they should be given as much stimulus as possible so that their full potential can be recognized and capitalized as soon as possible.
When I was going through my first years of schooling (public) I was skipping grades (1st grade then going to third grade and so on), but when my family moved to another state I was put back a grade and had to go through the whole number system (4th, 5th, 6th and so on). This I feel inhibited my own personal motivation to zoom through the school system and get an early start in college, whereas later when I finally did attend college, the motivational factor was minimalized.
Not that I'm the typical student but it says that the system lost track of my personal capabilities and placed me in the mainstream. Lost focus.
A child has the capacity to learn if placed in the proper stimulus/environment. Being in a classroom with 20 to 30 others and not given enough personal attention can inhibit their possibility. It's difficult to do this I realize but possible if we had more (qualified) educators and assistants in this country.
Children are the future, of that I'll always hold as truth.
We should maintain focus and priority to that future.
We do need to vamp up our educational level expectations for our children. They're smarter than we give credit for and they're certianly more capable than we give credit for. It shouldn't be so that they're forced to excel beyond their own individual capabilities but when they're young they should be given as much stimulus as possible so that their full potential can be recognized and capitalized as soon as possible.
When I was going through my first years of schooling (public) I was skipping grades (1st grade then going to third grade and so on), but when my family moved to another state I was put back a grade and had to go through the whole number system (4th, 5th, 6th and so on). This I feel inhibited my own personal motivation to zoom through the school system and get an early start in college, whereas later when I finally did attend college, the motivational factor was minimalized.
Not that I'm the typical student but it says that the system lost track of my personal capabilities and placed me in the mainstream. Lost focus.
A child has the capacity to learn if placed in the proper stimulus/environment. Being in a classroom with 20 to 30 others and not given enough personal attention can inhibit their possibility. It's difficult to do this I realize but possible if we had more (qualified) educators and assistants in this country.
Children are the future, of that I'll always hold as truth.
We should maintain focus and priority to that future.
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rmcrobertson said:
The problem was she did not get ANY basics, language, spelling, understanding reading (read that "DOL" sentence again please) UNTIL junior high where they had a smattering and maybe two classes that were required in high school. Two classes doesn't not provide a level of proficiency. It merely introduces everything they should have been started and taught in elementary school.
Actually her class did read Huck Finn in high school and Romeo and Juliet in Junior High. Her comprehension of the material was not good. I had to help her intensely to get through it. She didn't love Romeo and Juliet or Huck Finn, because she didn't understand it even though they picked it apart in class.
No she didn't.
Somewhat in defense of teachers, alot of times what they HAVE to teach is not what they want to. There is too much paperwork. But they give computer corrected tests these days. We parents can't even see what the child did wrong on the quiz/test because we never see the original question sheet. We only see the filled in bubble answer sheet. They don't even tell the kids what they did wrong, so come test or final time, good luck studying.
And the school district does not provide books with a lot of the curriculum or the books provided are used minimally for tests. They are just supposed to take notes. I am supposed to help my son study for a test, ask questions, from his chicken scratch notes which he doesn't know how to take. Even though I sit him down and show him how to do it and force him to do it for me.
Core Plus 1-2-3-4-5, a combination of algebra, geometry, statistics, modeling, trig, calculus is taught all together. You are responsible to remember for all the material that you learned in the two quarters of your 9th grade year, in the last two quarters of the 10th grade year, and then it all accumulates again next year. No math books that have any explanations on how to work a problem, no examples worked through. Parents have to buy algebra, etc. books to help them. They have a great plan there. You as a teacher presents the problem, doesn't explain nothing, the kids are broken up into groups of five and God help them, if one isn't smart enough to figure out how to do it. If they answer all the problems for that day they, the group gets a 5 as in 100%. If no one in the group know how to do the problems, they ALL get a big fat ZERO for the day. My daughter spent EVERY study hall period going into the teacher and asking help. Something wrong? She had gotten B's mostly through jr. high and now she is getting D- in Core Plus 2, 2nd year. I had to get her a tutor who was recommended by the school district, who didn't know how to tutor it. So the tutor had to go get the teachers's ANSWER book to understand what they wanted. Then I went to the math dept. head and found out since this was the first class going through this mess of a math system, a guinea pig class, that they would not have a final. I don't think I could do remember all those theorems in geometry and algabraic methods too, and statistics analysis in one test. I realize they want them to be able to solve problems differently but they haven't really tried out the system.
My son is doing better, since they do units now, test and thats it. But its like three weeks Algebra, test, three weeks Geometry, test, three weeks something else. He probably did better on the ACT but haven't gotten it back.
I have a lot more, it gets me going just to remember it.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
I find it a little hard to believe that the elementary school didn't drill, drill, drill, but maybe.
As long as schools teach to the test like you're describing--which they are now required to do by things like Bush's so-called, "No Child Left behind," bill, as well as political and community pressure, things will only get worse.
The way to fix things is easy: we're just too cheap.
a) Close almost all schools of education. Require teachers to actually learn a subject area, then have 'em teach it. Find other work for the losers. Don't allow people to be administrators who have never done any teaching; in fact, require admin to have a minimum of five years' teaching experience before they can be administrators.
b) Get a lot more teachers. Educate them. Pay them well. Expect them to teach, evaluate them regularly in a meaningful fashion, then get the hell out of their way.
c) Burn most school textbooks. Consider doing what they do in much of Europe: give everybody a, 'classical,' education, starting with Latin and Greek. Make Howard Zinn's, "A People's History of America," a required text. Make the "Norton Intro to Literature," a required text.
d) Make students read, read, read, and write, write, write. Past sixth grade, dump the pointless grammar drills.
e) Tell parents that if they want their kid promoted, the kid has to be able to handle the materials of that grade. Suggest that if they want to sue over it, go right ahead. Here's our lawyer's number.
f) Get rid of all advertising in schools. Remove all fast food, Coke machines, etc.
g) Require that all students--no exceptions whatsoever--maintain a, "C" average if they want to play sports. Make athletes all take regular classes.
h) Ease up on the math. Teach evolution again in biology class. require three years of a foreign language for graduation from high school.
i) Teach serious sex ed classes, as they do in civilized countries like Holland. Hand out condoms, birth control, whatever. Quit harassing girls who get pregnant. Open day care centers in all high schools for students, faculty and staff.
j) Institute real counseling for students--psychiatric and career--by real counselors. Spend a buncha money on all the, "handicapped," kids.
k) Cut all class sizes to something rational. Dump most grades. Have teachers write thoughtful evaluations of student work.
l) Get parents to read a book themselves once in a while. Get them to come to the schools, a lot. Get them to help teach their own kids.
m) Reinstitue paddling--for parents, and for all, "Mah kid ain't gonna read no anti-Bible lebsian book by no Commie," types. And for those two idiots in Texas who spend their whole time reviewing textbooks, in case somebody somewhere said something about gay people other than they should burn in hell.
n) Reinstitute the Pledge--the real one, the one the minister wrote, the one without any mention of, "God," or, "America."
o) Fix society, so kids have time and safety in which to learn, parents aren't working endlessly, and people actually value something other than money and consumer crap.
p) Spend the money.
Let's not hold our breath...
Oh, I forgot. All schools should be required--and paid--to have art and music classes, mandatory for everyone. All schools should be required to maintain student bands and orchestras.
As long as schools teach to the test like you're describing--which they are now required to do by things like Bush's so-called, "No Child Left behind," bill, as well as political and community pressure, things will only get worse.
The way to fix things is easy: we're just too cheap.
a) Close almost all schools of education. Require teachers to actually learn a subject area, then have 'em teach it. Find other work for the losers. Don't allow people to be administrators who have never done any teaching; in fact, require admin to have a minimum of five years' teaching experience before they can be administrators.
b) Get a lot more teachers. Educate them. Pay them well. Expect them to teach, evaluate them regularly in a meaningful fashion, then get the hell out of their way.
c) Burn most school textbooks. Consider doing what they do in much of Europe: give everybody a, 'classical,' education, starting with Latin and Greek. Make Howard Zinn's, "A People's History of America," a required text. Make the "Norton Intro to Literature," a required text.
d) Make students read, read, read, and write, write, write. Past sixth grade, dump the pointless grammar drills.
e) Tell parents that if they want their kid promoted, the kid has to be able to handle the materials of that grade. Suggest that if they want to sue over it, go right ahead. Here's our lawyer's number.
f) Get rid of all advertising in schools. Remove all fast food, Coke machines, etc.
g) Require that all students--no exceptions whatsoever--maintain a, "C" average if they want to play sports. Make athletes all take regular classes.
h) Ease up on the math. Teach evolution again in biology class. require three years of a foreign language for graduation from high school.
i) Teach serious sex ed classes, as they do in civilized countries like Holland. Hand out condoms, birth control, whatever. Quit harassing girls who get pregnant. Open day care centers in all high schools for students, faculty and staff.
j) Institute real counseling for students--psychiatric and career--by real counselors. Spend a buncha money on all the, "handicapped," kids.
k) Cut all class sizes to something rational. Dump most grades. Have teachers write thoughtful evaluations of student work.
l) Get parents to read a book themselves once in a while. Get them to come to the schools, a lot. Get them to help teach their own kids.
m) Reinstitue paddling--for parents, and for all, "Mah kid ain't gonna read no anti-Bible lebsian book by no Commie," types. And for those two idiots in Texas who spend their whole time reviewing textbooks, in case somebody somewhere said something about gay people other than they should burn in hell.
n) Reinstitute the Pledge--the real one, the one the minister wrote, the one without any mention of, "God," or, "America."
o) Fix society, so kids have time and safety in which to learn, parents aren't working endlessly, and people actually value something other than money and consumer crap.
p) Spend the money.
Let's not hold our breath...
Oh, I forgot. All schools should be required--and paid--to have art and music classes, mandatory for everyone. All schools should be required to maintain student bands and orchestras.
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1. No drill, drill, drill when my kids were going through elementary, that's a fact. But I believed it has changed alot since standarized tests for every grade have been instituted the last two years.
2. What NOT to do. Import a a whole lot of Somali people who have had a hard time adjusting. Needing second language teachers in abundance, alot more class space, interpreters, bussing. Our school district lobbied for and got two bond issues spaced about 4 years apart. We have built wonderful buildings-added on gymnasiums to junior high and another wing, two new wings at the high school plus alot of renovation inside, same with alot of the elementary schools. They have installed alot of computer technology, security systems, video conferencing between teachers, alot of new vehicles with School District on it. They still can't figure it out though. My kids were bussed across town to the exact opposite corner until 6th grade. These busses are running everywhere. No neighborhood schools, all that renovation and the kids are still bussed. Last two years, in addition to the bonds, we have to pay for the bussing now. Now there is talk about more money is needed because our state has cut local funding. I recall they wanted class size cut down and hence the bond. They are still about 30ish.
3. Don't allow TENURE. Most jobs in the real world are answerable to, why not teachers. I know a band teacher who was more into it for the trophies and acclaim. He blackballed my daughter out of varsity band because she didn't want to spend Christmas in 9th grade on a bus trip to Florida to perform for Marching Band. She said she would do everything else, practices until midnight during summer, go out of town for dates every week during school hours, do fundraising for their trip. So, instead of the 2nd flute she was in jr. high, she became harmony in the far back row and never played lead. She did have a tutor who got her into the district contest which her band teacher would not allow her to do, and she won lst place in her category. Her award was thrown down on her chair. That band teacher was tenured and retired a couple of years ago - with honors. Alot of kids quit band because of him. Some role model.
4. Agree completely --read and write and lots of homework regarding it.
5. Grade C Avg.- have that requirement for sports already plus a few more.
6. Daughter aced French, took 6 credits, only 4 classes usually offered but she did semi-private conversation and special assignment classes with the teacher too. Language didn't help her with reading and writing in college.
7. I believe in God...under God in the Pledge. Alot of people do. It should stay.
8. A lot of math is needed to pass the ACT, SAT. to get into college these days, no getting around that. Besides the required math in college.
9. Don't agree with the bookburning anymore than internet banning. The basis of the subject taught, I feel should still be from books. Just handout what else they are teaching or give a class on proper note taking.
10. Unfortunately, there are alot of pregnant girls here. They are allowed to continue in high school or go to alternative school at night. And they have a sex ed class in junior high and another in high school too. Minnesota was just named for being a good place for support in this area and generally, for teens. sigh! Can't help stupidity though.
Got to get off this subject, although my blood pressure has a ways above 64/resting- to go.
McRobertson, are you a teacher?
2. What NOT to do. Import a a whole lot of Somali people who have had a hard time adjusting. Needing second language teachers in abundance, alot more class space, interpreters, bussing. Our school district lobbied for and got two bond issues spaced about 4 years apart. We have built wonderful buildings-added on gymnasiums to junior high and another wing, two new wings at the high school plus alot of renovation inside, same with alot of the elementary schools. They have installed alot of computer technology, security systems, video conferencing between teachers, alot of new vehicles with School District on it. They still can't figure it out though. My kids were bussed across town to the exact opposite corner until 6th grade. These busses are running everywhere. No neighborhood schools, all that renovation and the kids are still bussed. Last two years, in addition to the bonds, we have to pay for the bussing now. Now there is talk about more money is needed because our state has cut local funding. I recall they wanted class size cut down and hence the bond. They are still about 30ish.
3. Don't allow TENURE. Most jobs in the real world are answerable to, why not teachers. I know a band teacher who was more into it for the trophies and acclaim. He blackballed my daughter out of varsity band because she didn't want to spend Christmas in 9th grade on a bus trip to Florida to perform for Marching Band. She said she would do everything else, practices until midnight during summer, go out of town for dates every week during school hours, do fundraising for their trip. So, instead of the 2nd flute she was in jr. high, she became harmony in the far back row and never played lead. She did have a tutor who got her into the district contest which her band teacher would not allow her to do, and she won lst place in her category. Her award was thrown down on her chair. That band teacher was tenured and retired a couple of years ago - with honors. Alot of kids quit band because of him. Some role model.
4. Agree completely --read and write and lots of homework regarding it.
5. Grade C Avg.- have that requirement for sports already plus a few more.
6. Daughter aced French, took 6 credits, only 4 classes usually offered but she did semi-private conversation and special assignment classes with the teacher too. Language didn't help her with reading and writing in college.
7. I believe in God...under God in the Pledge. Alot of people do. It should stay.
8. A lot of math is needed to pass the ACT, SAT. to get into college these days, no getting around that. Besides the required math in college.
9. Don't agree with the bookburning anymore than internet banning. The basis of the subject taught, I feel should still be from books. Just handout what else they are teaching or give a class on proper note taking.
10. Unfortunately, there are alot of pregnant girls here. They are allowed to continue in high school or go to alternative school at night. And they have a sex ed class in junior high and another in high school too. Minnesota was just named for being a good place for support in this area and generally, for teens. sigh! Can't help stupidity though.
Got to get off this subject, although my blood pressure has a ways above 64/resting- to go.
McRobertson, are you a teacher?
Tgace
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WoW! Besides the "Teachers are often inept" part I actually agree with a rmcrobertson post! (and I thought I was closed mindedrmcrobertson said:
) On the teachers part though... I know many teachers, and many complain that they are shackled by governmental education mandates and standardized testing pressures. Not to mention school administrators, many of whom were never teachers.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Clarence Thomas wants to go back to what he thinks was the original Constitution; I'm willing to go back to what is well-documented as the original Pledge, the one that was not rewritten during the Red hysetria of the 1950s by a craven Congress, the one that was intended as a basic pledge to the idea of democracy and freedom that would be said by the schoolchildren of every country that belonged to a real league of Nations.
Sorry, but tenure is essential. Teaching is necessarily political. Without it, you'd have the PTA breathing down the neck of every teacher who was any good. Them, or some Bible-thumper. (NOT the same thing as a Christian.) That said--sorry, but a lot of teachers suck. What can you expect in a capitalist society? The best and the brightest usually don't teach, especially in the sciences.
Schools today wave technology like a thirteenth-century mountebank waved the alleged fingerbone of John the Baptist. It's like the military under Bush: billions for technology, but screw the troops.
Bussing? Well, if our society weren't still racist, we wouldn't have it. And if politicans weren't the cowards we demand that they are, they wouldn't take these cheap ways out.
Sex ed? Abstinence only? In the face of a consumerist society that says sell, sell sell, sell that sex? Good luck getting that to work.
Burn the ACT and the SAT, whose original purpose was to find underpriviledged bright kids. Raise taxes, pay for everybody's education, and let kids compete for the best schools. Pay, too, for the kids who want to study diesel mechanics.
Yeah, I teach, and have for over twenty years. I musta really pissed somebody off, in some past life.
Sorry, but tenure is essential. Teaching is necessarily political. Without it, you'd have the PTA breathing down the neck of every teacher who was any good. Them, or some Bible-thumper. (NOT the same thing as a Christian.) That said--sorry, but a lot of teachers suck. What can you expect in a capitalist society? The best and the brightest usually don't teach, especially in the sciences.
Schools today wave technology like a thirteenth-century mountebank waved the alleged fingerbone of John the Baptist. It's like the military under Bush: billions for technology, but screw the troops.
Bussing? Well, if our society weren't still racist, we wouldn't have it. And if politicans weren't the cowards we demand that they are, they wouldn't take these cheap ways out.
Sex ed? Abstinence only? In the face of a consumerist society that says sell, sell sell, sell that sex? Good luck getting that to work.
Burn the ACT and the SAT, whose original purpose was to find underpriviledged bright kids. Raise taxes, pay for everybody's education, and let kids compete for the best schools. Pay, too, for the kids who want to study diesel mechanics.
Yeah, I teach, and have for over twenty years. I musta really pissed somebody off, in some past life.
