The Complete Package

[7starmantis]

ok, here goes with regard to a brief history. similaritiy between styles and the recorded history places tai chi, mantis, hsingi at round the 1600s. Baji was mentioned in the Ming Dynasty 1368-1644. It does cover the 1600 period but may be developed up to 200 yrs earlier than mantis. Given that all these styles occurred in neighbouring provinces, it is hard to imagine that they sprung up in isolation or that they had a "secret lineage" for many generations before the 1600s. It seems reasonable there is significant co-development between these systems at around the same time.

Thats great, but I was asking to see the sources your were using to come to those conclusions.

No, I haven't come across the form "Dou Gan Quan" or "Dore Kwan Kuen", what material do they cover?

Dore KWan Kuen is the cantonese spelling while Dou Gan Quan is the mandarin. Of course there are millions of variations, we use Da Goon. Its the fourth form in the system and translates to "Avoiding Force".

I don't know what 8 points of attack is. Yes I agree that certain strikes at the advance level work best if done with precision. Finger strike to the face would at least distract your opponent. Some times the blade of the hand can slip in towards the throat. But the fact is if you miss you do not damage your hands. There seems to be too many hard things around the arm pit to do finger strikes there. Not good if you miss and hit the ribs. i find that the more advance hits focus on zones as opposed to point strikes.

If your aiming for the armpit and you miss and hit the ribs, your should really spend more time practicing. Thats a big margin of error. Plus, in mantis its never just a strike, in the form you have blocked with pak sau, performed a grab, raised the arm, lowered your center, plucked the punch, and then an almost crane's beak type finger strike to the soft armpit. It does take conditioning of the hands. Mantis people usually do alot of finger conditioning and even finger-tip pushups which will really strengthen and condition your fingers for strikes like that.
The more advanced hits focus specifically on points and not zones. Zones are in the begining and for less advanced, once you start getting to the really advanced striking points and forms, it gets very, very precise.

I guess you dont care to answer the question about with whom you train. Thats ok, but let me give you some advice. On the internet in general and especially on this board, and even more with me, facts are needed. Refusing to give sources, or talk about your training only shadows you with doubt and makes people write you off. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but the mere nature of internet communication demands some type of source or proof.

7sm

 

[Fumanchu]

Quote: "Thats great, but I was asking to see the sources your were using to come to those conclusions."

I haven’t kept a record on the sources of information. It’s from web sites I’ve read about on the internet and normal history books that talk about the different time periods of dynasties in China. I admit it is not a formal study by any stretch of the imagination. One thing I should add is that in both the recorded history and folklore the above systems are attributed to skilled practitioners in their own rite and have had involvement in the military. We know that during this period coincided with the change in political parties (so to speak) from Ming to Ching. It makes sense that some of the former high-ranking soldiers you can say lost their jobs or resigned. At a practical level, these soldiers having been "made redundent" still have mouths to feed and bills to pay thus plying their kung fu skills as bodyguards / martial arts teachers / security officers. The development of these systems might have been based on concepts found within the military training in the Ming Dynasty. Of course being ‘freelance agents’ after their military service the founders can spend more time developing on those ideas thus resulting in the various branches of northern systems we see today.

Quote: "Dore KWan Kuen is the cantonese spelling while Dou Gan Quan is the mandarin. Of course there are millions of variations, we use Da Goon. Its the fourth form in the system and translates to "Avoiding Force". "

That sounds interesting. We only learn 4 mantis forms in our study of this system. Bung Bu, Lan Zhaat, 8-elbows and Zah Yao - which contain the refined concepts of the system.

Quote: " If your aiming for the armpit and you miss and hit the ribs, your should really spend more time practicing. Thats a big margin of error. Plus, in mantis its never just a strike, in the form you have blocked with pak sau, performed a grab, raised the arm, lowered your center, plucked the punch, and then an almost crane's beak type finger strike to the soft armpit. It does take conditioning of the hands. Mantis people usually do alot of finger conditioning and even finger-tip pushups which will really strengthen and condition your fingers for strikes like that.
The more advanced hits focus specifically on points and not zones. Zones are in the begining and for less advanced, once you start getting to the really advanced striking points and forms, it gets very, very precise."
Ok I see where you’re coming from now – as you basically have control of your opponent. If I’ve got an opponent’s weight going up and I’m going down, I would love to go after their centre of balance either going after their mid section or below. I’m not so sure about going up for an armpit strike – this is because if you’re bringing a person’s weight up, they could quite easily lift their knee up as well. Best to have your forearm to wedge off the potential knee or to take out their balance as you go down. Even in a grappling situation, your opponent will still be moving around quite a bit. I don’t think I’ll have the accuracy to strike specific points even with another 10 years of training. Sure if it’s a stationary target it would be easy – as it is easy to hit a stationary pad. When the target moves, as I see it the concepts in the higher forms allow you to chase down the target – so that you can target the zones more of the time (as opposed to missing them). I don’t see higher forms as hitting smaller targets as such.

Quote: "I guess you dont care to answer the question about with whom you train. Thats ok, but let me give you some advice. On the internet in general and especially on this board, and even more with me, facts are needed. Refusing to give sources, or talk about your training only shadows you with doubt and makes people write you off. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but the mere nature of internet communication demands some type of source or proof."

I’m not sure if my instructor wants his name to be mentioned on the net. Hopefully the content of what I write will be enough for you to determine whether it is worth your time or stuff that should be written off.

 

[7starmantis]

That sounds interesting. We only learn 4 mantis forms in our study of this system. Bung Bu, Lan Zhaat, 8-elbows and Zah Yao - which contain the refined concepts of the system.

Yeah, I figured as much. So you dont train in 7 star mantis but in a system that also touches on mantis, is that correct? Such as a shaolin system that uses many of the different animals, giving you exposure to tiger, eagle claw, mantis, snake fist, etc...
There are different accepted forms in the 7 star system, but one of the major worldwide accepted lists is Lee Kam Wing's. You can find a list on his website. Remeber, others claim different forms and such, but his is one of the main accepted lists.

Ok I see where you’re coming from now – as you basically have control of your opponent. If I’ve got an opponent’s weight going up and I’m going down, I would love to go after their centre of balance either going after their mid section or below. I’m not so sure about going up for an armpit strike – this is because if you’re bringing a person’s weight up, they could quite easily lift their knee up as well. Best to have your forearm to wedge off the potential knee or to take out their balance as you go down. Even in a grappling situation, your opponent will still be moving around quite a bit. I don’t think I’ll have the accuracy to strike specific points even with another 10 years of training. Sure if it’s a stationary target it would be easy – as it is easy to hit a stationary pad. When the target moves, as I see it the concepts in the higher forms allow you to chase down the target – so that you can target the zones more of the time (as opposed to missing them). I don’t see higher forms as hitting smaller targets as such.

To block a strike originating from your chest area, to the armpit of the opponant (more or less a straight line) it would be simple impossible to block that with a knee, its basically a physical impossibility. If your were very low and striking up the possibility exists, but thats where feel comes in, if they do, you have your forearm, and elbow there to block, parry, yield, etc. Thats the whole martial arts thing, if they block you move to something else. It doesn't take 10 years to get that type of accuracy, you said the secret yourself, control. One you gain control of the opponant, stirking with accuracy is alot easier. That type of precision is vital in the upper level technqiues and forms in the 7 star system. You dont see that in the higher forms, because we are talking about different forms. The higher forms I'm speaking of, you dont learn in your training.

I’m not sure if my instructor wants his name to be mentioned on the net. Hopefully the content of what I write will be enough for you to determine whether it is worth your time or stuff that should be written off.

Thats fine, there are Private Message here as well. Also, what reason would one not want there name mentioned as the teacher of a certain person? Nevertheless, I'll respect that. I'm not trying to decide if I should write you off or not, by knowing who your teacher is, I was simply curious as to your lineage, training methods, and style you are studying. Many lineages have differences, and knowing who you are under can help me understand what your saying a bit better, thats all. I will decide wether its worth my time by reading your posts alone.

7sm

 

[Fumanchu]

Quote: "Yeah, I figured as much. So you dont train in 7 star mantis but in a system that also touches on mantis, is that correct? Such as a shaolin system that uses many of the different animals, giving you exposure to tiger, eagle claw, mantis, snake fist, etc... There are different accepted forms in the 7 star system, but one of the major worldwide accepted lists is Lee Kam Wing's. You can find a list on his website. Remeber, others claim different forms and such, but his is one of the main accepted lists."


The 4 forms comprise the mantis system that we train as well as 2 long fist forms. Yes, I had a look at your list, you do have many weapon sets, whereas we have a form or 2 for each of the gim broadsword and staff. You seem to split "ba elbows" into 2 sections. You also do Bung Bu which is a beginning form. Interesting though you split Zhai Yaio into the beginner / intermediate-higher / higher levels. We do Zhai Yaio as one form at some stage after ba elbows. The concepts in this is actually rather advance. I was hunting around and found this website users.aol.com/beishaolin/qixing.html. Noticed that your list does not include "Intercepting" or "Laan Dzeed" (No.29 on that list) in your training. Is this named as something else or the material is being covered by other forms in your program? In our training, that’s the 2nd form we learn in mantis.

Quote: "To block a strike originating from your chest area, to the armpit of the opponant (more or less a straight line) it would be simple impossible to block that with a knee, its basically a physical impossibility. If your were very low and striking up the possibility exists, but thats where feel comes in, if they do, you have your forearm, and elbow there to block, parry, yield, etc. Thats the whole martial arts thing, if they block you move to something else. It doesn't take 10 years to get that type of accuracy, you said the secret yourself, control. One you gain control of the opponant, stirking with accuracy is alot easier. That type of precision is vital in the upper level technqiues and forms in the 7 star system. You dont see that in the higher forms, because we are talking about different forms. The higher forms I'm speaking of, you dont learn in your training."

You’re right, it’s not to block the armpit strike but rather to knee someone in the face when they are going down. What type of training do you do to get this level of accuracy? For me, there are many occasions where a sparing partner’s last minute reaction will cause a clean hit to become a glancing blow to a much larger target area like the abdomen. Would these precision strikes be taught after ba-elbows?

Quote" "Thats fine, there are Private Message here as well. Also, what reason would one not want there name mentioned as the teacher of a certain person? Nevertheless, I'll respect that. I'm not trying to decide if I should write you off or not, by knowing who your teacher is, I was simply curious as to your lineage, training methods, and style you are studying. Many lineages have differences, and knowing who you are under can help me understand what your saying a bit better, thats all. I will decide wether its worth my time by reading your posts alone."

In terms of training methods we do quite a lot of application work. I just counted.... your system has over 90 forms. It takes us close to a year to learn one form because each mantis form represents a significant advancement in the complexity of movement. How much would one be expected to cover in say 5 years?

 

[7starmantis]

The 4 forms comprise the mantis system that we train as well as 2 long fist forms. Yes, I had a look at your list, you do have many weapon sets, whereas we have a form or 2 for each of the gim broadsword and staff. You seem to split "ba elbows" into 2 sections. You also do Bung Bu which is a beginning form. Interesting though you split Zhai Yaio into the beginner / intermediate-higher / higher levels. We do Zhai Yaio as one form at some stage after ba elbows. The concepts in this is actually rather advance. I was hunting around and found this website users.aol.com/beishaolin/qixing.html. Noticed that your list does not include "Intercepting" or "Laan Dzeed" (No.29 on that list) in your training. Is this named as something else or the material is being covered by other forms in your program? In our training, that’s the 2nd form we learn in mantis.

That list is just Lee Kam Wing's accepted list. Its not my schools list or the only accepted 7 star forms, there are other forms that are accepted by other lineages as well, like jung jeet (Laan Dzeed). LKW's list showed 82 sets and the qigong set. Many of those are weapons sets and 2 man sets. My school uses many of LKW's and Chiu Luen's as well. The Gim isn't really used as a "mantis" wespon, but we do many gim forms. We use many of the 118 chinese weapons including, staff, spear, cern sau do, hook sword, daggers, flute, etc... I'm not really sure what "ba elbows" is. I do know Laan Dzeed (lung jeet) we do that set in my school.

You still didn't answer my question however. Do you study a kung fu system that touches on many animals including the mantis? What is your specific style of CMA? There are many who just study kung fu and it touches on many different systems. Nothing is wrong with that, I'm just curious as to what exactly you study.

You’re right, it’s not to block the armpit strike but rather to knee someone in the face when they are going down. What type of training do you do to get this level of accuracy? For me, there are many occasions where a sparing partner’s last minute reaction will cause a clean hit to become a glancing blow to a much larger target area like the abdomen. Would these precision strikes be taught after ba-elbows?

Well in lung jeet its not a kneeling strike, but a strike from chut sing ma (seven start stance) so being kneed in the face is still pretty out of the question. There are many strikes from kneeling stance where being kneed is a real possibility, but in mantis we use the pluck and body control to decrease that possibility. Accuracy is taught in our forms, and learned through jeem leem (chi sau). Its not percision strikes per se, but just control over your body enough to have accuracy. There are many times the opponant moves, but you should feel that and also change your attack. One of the whole basis to our strikes is the pluck and gaining control, without that, it would be hard to be precise.

In terms of training methods we do quite a lot of application work. I just counted.... your system has over 90 forms. It takes us close to a year to learn one form because each mantis form represents a significant advancement in the complexity of movement. How much would one be expected to cover in say 5 years?

The 7 star mantis system does have many forms. What a student covers in 5 years is completely up to the student and his/her ability, and desire, and training. We start all of our students off learning wah lum forms first. They dont even learn their first 7 star set until about a year into it. Then it generally progresses one set in 6 to 8 months. Depending on the form and the student.

I would love discussing mantis with you, but it seems you are not willing to answer questions, without that it would be hard for us to really discuss things.

7sm

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

How so?
7sm

Because there were so many arts being taught at shaolin ,not every monk trained in all of the styles being taught. So it could be that Wong Long defeated monks that only knew Cha Fist or Hua Fist.

What does the amount of styles taught at shaolin have to do with it?
7sm

How can you say it was created to defeat Shaolin arts ,if you don't know what style(s) those monks knew? It might have been created to just deal with one particular style.

Ok, so wong long defeated the monks he was training with. I dont think determining the exact systems is needed.
7sm

Well, if you're going to make a statement like "it was created to defeat shaolin arts" ,you need to know what arts you're talking about.

Don't you think?

Were these monks shaolin monks?
7sm

Who knows actually?

You as well as i know that alot of CMA knowledge is based in myth and legend.

There is no mention of their skill level they could've been lay monks as well.It also doesn't mention if they were warrior monks ,so who's to say...

Where they at a shaolin temple?
7sm

That's what the story claims...

Then would not his new system have defeated shaolin arts?
7sm

Not really,

It might have defeated a shaolin art or a mixture of a few there of ,but to say it defeated shaolin arts is just wrong.

No one is saying the only use for mantis is to defeat said certain specific styles. What I said was that it is generally accepted that mantis was created to fight against shaolin arts. If you buy any of the accepted history, that statement is correct.

7sm

I never said anything about defeating specific arts ,i just said to say it was created to defeat shaolin arts without knowing what arts is leading ppl with hear say.

Yes that is accepted that it was created to fight against shaolin arts ,but because ppl accept that theroy ,doesn't make it fact.



jeff

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I can't disagree with 7* s point, because literally, monks in training and from the age of 6 are still loosely deemed as monks at shaolin, though not officially until some 20 yrs later. ?Most monks have a good grasp of most or many of the shaolin styles and forms and excel at a small few.

On lay monks though, and speaking of having the information, shaolin monks prctice a branch of buddhism called mahayana or ch'an , and don't have lay monks except your 30th generation su s ( like your shi suxi s, shi meaning enlightened one, and the begining all docrinated monks names, the next syllabal representing their generation , xi in this case being his name and given by the monk bestowing the discipleship and meaning "joy" ) who are just too old to practice as rigorously, and lay disclpes are lay in terms of vows and ascetic committment as opposed to secular and not in gongfu practice as it is integral to the belief system and one of the three defining "gems of shaolin" practice ( dharma and doctrine ( scripture) , gongfu, and sangha ( community).

To say one art or style could defeat all monks of shaolin, is extremely general and unreasonable. To be clear, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think that's what any of you have been saying. To say that it was used to combat the styles of a certain few ( also at times used by non- temple or non-indocrinated gongfu practitioners including imperialguards and armies who often used some of those styles or parts of against Chinas citizens and courts men who hired these practioners for protection ) and spending time training with those styles and gravitating toward a defence for what he met , that system becomming mantis is certainly a viable and credible theory.



cheers

Blooming Lotus

 

[RHD]

Though I generally despise IKF magazine, I went back and reread that article. It's really one of the better ones written about the PM stlye. I was curious though about the 12 principles of attack. They are mentiontion, but never listed or discussed. I wonder if these relate at all to Hung Gar's 12 bridges?

Mike

 

[Fumanchu]

Quote: "That list is just Lee Kam Wing's accepted list. Its not my schools list or the only accepted 7 star forms, there are other forms that are accepted by other lineages as well, like jung jeet (Laan Dzeed). LKW's list showed 82 sets and the qigong set. Many of those are weapons sets and 2 man sets. My school uses many of LKW's and Chiu Luen's as well. The Gim isn't really used as a "mantis" wespon, but we do many gim forms. We use many of the 118 chinese weapons including, staff, spear, cern sau do, hook sword, daggers, flute, etc... I'm not really sure what "ba elbows" is. I do know Laan Dzeed (lung jeet) we do that set in my school. You still didn't answer my question however. Do you study a kung fu system that touches on many animals including the mantis? What is your specific style of CMA? There are many who just study kung fu and it touches on many different systems. Nothing is wrong with that, I'm just curious as to what exactly you study. "

Ba elbows is the English translation as shown in the table in LKW’s web site that you referenced to - Yat Lo Bau Chau, Yi Lu Ba Zhoug Routine 1 of Ba Elbow Yee Lo Bau Chau Er Lu Ba Zhoug Routine 2 of Ba Elbow. Sorry, I didn’t know you were asking me that question on animals, I thought you were making an anology with how shaolin schools train. No, I study mantis (do not do any other animal styles). To us, the name mantis is only an incidental matter and we don’t try to find a relationship with other animals or the physical relationship to that insect in particular. Specific style is Seven Star Mantis, which we do about 70% of the time. The rest of the time touches on other Northern systems such a long fist, baji, piqua and some people do tai chi. I would have thought the straight sword adapts well to mantis and vice versa, curious that you say that the gim isn’t really used as a mantis weapon. It does seem you spend quite a lot of time on weapon's training.

From my understanding, the original mantis system originated with only a few forms, how did it eventually end with with such a large number of hand to hand forms and do you think that they are necessary for a student to understand the system?

Quote : "Well in lung jeet its not a kneeling strike, but a strike from chut sing ma (seven start stance) so being kneed in the face is still pretty out of the question. There are many strikes from kneeling stance where being kneed is a real possibility, but in mantis we use the pluck and body control to decrease that possibility. Accuracy is taught in our forms, and learned through jeem leem (chi sau). Its not percision strikes per se, but just control over your body enough to have accuracy. There are many times the opponant moves, but you should feel that and also change your attack. One of the whole basis to our strikes is the pluck and gaining control, without that, it would be hard to be precise. "

Ok I see where you’re coming from. I’m not familiar with "chi sau", in terms of the progressing in learning, where does this form sit in between Bung Bu, Laan Dzeed and Ba Zhoug?

Quote: " The 7 star mantis system does have many forms. What a student covers in 5 years is completely up to the student and his/her ability, and desire, and training. We start all of our students off learning wah lum forms first. They dont even learn their first 7 star set until about a year into it. Then it generally progresses one set in 6 to 8 months. Depending on the form and the student. I would love discussing mantis with you, but it seems you are not willing to answer questions, without that it would be hard for us to really discuss things."

Yes that’s pretty much the case in the classes I attend, we progress at our own rate. Do all students progress through the same sets or would different sets be skipped by different students if those sets cover the same material as other sets that a student might have done?

 

[Blooming Lotus]

ba elbows literally translated is 8 elbows ( 8 = ba as in bagua 8 diagrams) and in this case likely ( though don't quote me) refers to branches of mizong elbows also comming from shaolin gongfu.



It is a shame you don't recognise or associate with other animal gongfu systems, because in acknowledging the shaolin root aspect of mantis ( or partial root as the case may be), and being shaolin gongfu is based on the five animals , as with the mantis sets / forms origins that were queried earlier in the thread, IMO you tend to miss out on some important concepts. When you understand that the forms I just spoke of were created from drunken shaolin monkey , quite clearly an animal form, I think the rest explains itself.

respectfully

Blooming Lotus

 

[Fumanchu]

Blooming lotus

Yes, I know that is the English translation and, I refer to it as 8 elbows in one of my earlier posts. Subsequently I called it ba elbows as a matter of consistency in the discussion with regard to the web site 7 staramntis referred me to. As for Mizong, my understanding is that it is one of the later compilations of long fist. Some sources say that it came about in the 18 century founded upon ideas from earlier northern systems like Hsing I, Baji, mantis etc…. The term drunken to me is not to be taken literally, but rather embodies the idea of unpredictable footwork and efficient ways of moving. There are of course other drunken sets within certain systems that are purely for display / demonstration only and serves no combat purpose. As for 8 elbows, the footwork expends on what you learn in Bung Bu (first form of mantis) combined with improved torque in your movement, which you learn in Laan Zhaat. The idea behind 8 elbows is that it lets you reach the similar targets, as you would do in Bung Bu, but from an otherwise less advantageous position. As for the link between Shaolin and mantis, it is likely that mantis found it’s way to Shaolin sometime after its creation as it did find it’s way to HK, US, Taiwan etc. But it is unlikely there is a Shaolin origin to mantis, as I pointed out earlier, the founders of these northern styles were from the military as opposed from the monastery.
As for missing out on concepts – not sure what concepts you’re referring to.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

lol at the irony of your last statement . : )

Drunken gongfu is definately a combat branch of martial artistry and it certainly has both dynamic feet and hands and is today still being performed and trained at the shaolin temple. Drunken monkey, and many monkey sub -styles have regularly been used in tournies and comps ( for example taixingpek kwar from Grandmaster Chan who also took the shaolin monkey and added it to his own hongkong style to acheive undefeated ring victory for many many years. Most tournie events today though that are including styles are as you said, largely display and performance which is likely where the confusion lays. Longfist was originally from shaolin as far as I know, and again still practiced as at shaolin and throughout shaolin gongfu schools world wide as a defininitive form and any branch or sub branch of longfist is still rooted back in that system.

As we have all repetitively said, history is dubious and often has many conflicting versions. One is that mantis was created at shaolin temple or with the assistance of monks who sparred and trained with the founder. If you read the links I posted to the mantis forms origin query , you'll see other ppl have traced the same connection between the styles.


cheers
Blooming Lotus

 

[Fumanchu]

Monkey / Drunken Monkey or 5 Animal Shaolin tries to imitate the movements of the subject matter. Imitation of mantis insect is not something that Mantis tries to do. I agree that historical accounts can be dubious and often have many conflicting versions. Therefore to determine the account that is most reasonable we have to look at the underlying objectives and theory behind the systems as a means of determining their association in their past. Accordingly, it is unlikely that mantis originated from the Shaolin temple. Mantis could have found its way to the temple sometime after its creation (as I said earlier) and became a separate branch that is taught in conjunction of other Shaolin forms. Longfist does not have a Shaolin origin. It originated from the Islamic provinces of China somewhere in the North West.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

It's funny you should mention that, and again with the dubious history reporting, and not to thread-jack 7*M s thread ( and probably a conversation best left for elsewhere), but there are current rumours and stories flying about academic scholarly historian circles at the moment of all sorts of gongfu having actutal origins right throughtout that whole table including Russia and so forth. Interesting to see who has proof where ha .
Regardless, I'll bear in mind what you've said for future cross -referencing anyway.

Cheers Fumanchu

Blooming Lotus

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

We start all of our students off learning wah lum forms first. They dont even learn their first 7 star set until about a year into it. Then it generally progresses one set in 6 to 8 months. Depending on the form and the student.
7sm

Okay, 7* i have aquestion for you.

Why is it that you guys are taught Wah Lum forms?


I don't mean to start any trouble ,but it is widely known that Grandmaster Chan Poi created many of the Wah Lum forms taught within their system himself after his sifu had passed. He did learn some from a few of his seniors ,but this is not to say anything negative about Chan Poi because he is a remarkable martial artist ,but it is also known that many of the forms he created were done basicly for show.

So how does this help students with learning 7* Mantis?

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

Though I generally despise IKF magazine, I went back and reread that article. It's really one of the better ones written about the PM stlye. I was curious though about the 12 principles of attack. They are mentiontion, but never listed or discussed. I wonder if these relate at all to Hung Gar's 12 bridges?

I dont know, but I would assume they probably do have some similarities. There are 12 soft and 8 hard principles in the mantis system, I would imagine there are similarities on both the hard and soft principles. I'll have to ask my sifu now, since his kung fu brother teaches hung gar.

Ba elbows is the English translation as shown in the table in LKW’s web site that you referenced to - Yat Lo Bau Chau, Yi Lu Ba Zhoug Routine 1 of Ba Elbow Yee Lo Bau Chau Er Lu Ba Zhoug Routine 2 of Ba Elbow. Sorry, I didn’t know you were asking me that question on animals, I thought you were making an anology with how shaolin schools train. No, I study mantis (do not do any other animal styles). To us, the name mantis is only an incidental matter and we don’t try to find a relationship with other animals or the physical relationship to that insect in particular. Specific style is Seven Star Mantis, which we do about 70% of the time. The rest of the time touches on other Northern systems such a long fist, baji, piqua and some people do tai chi. I would have thought the straight sword adapts well to mantis and vice versa, curious that you say that the gim isn’t really used as a mantis weapon. It does seem you spend quite a lot of time on weapon's training.

Oh, yes, I see now. All 7 star shcools I've ever seen teach those as two sets, 1st routing (Yut) and 2nd routine (Ye). I dont really know how else to discuss with you since you are not willing to answer any questions about your instructor or training. I've never seen or heard of any 7 star people who train as you do with only 4 forms, I've also never heard of any 7 star schools that try hard to make no connection whatsoever to the mantis insect. That is why I was curious to know your lineage. I'm not saying your wrong, or not studying true mantis, but its hard to discuss further without some sort of understanding of what you do. I dont spend much time on weapons at all. Probably 15% of my training or so, maybe.

From my understanding, the original mantis system originated with only a few forms, how did it eventually end with with such a large number of hand to hand forms and do you think that they are necessary for a student to understand the system?

Where did you get that understanding from? I dont know that I think it is neccessary to know every 7 star form accepted by any 7 star school in the world, but I do think it would take more than just the 4 basic forms you guys train in to really understand the system. There are principles and techniques, and concepts you are missing that are very core to the system.

Ok I see where you’re coming from. I’m not familiar with "chi sau", in terms of the progressing in learning, where does this form sit in between Bung Bu, Laan Dzeed and Ba Zhoug?

Chi sau or more appropriately "jeem leem" is how you being learning how to use mantis in real situations, how to move from one techinque to the other, how to develop "feel" and learn to attack and control your opponents center as well as your own. Its mentioned in the artilce at the beginning of this thread.Its not a form, but a method of fighting. It starts very slow and picks up speed, power, and so forth and so on. Its one of the things I feel if you are missing you are not getting even a small glimpse of understanding of the system itself.

Yes that’s pretty much the case in the classes I attend, we progress at our own rate. Do all students progress through the same sets or would different sets be skipped by different students if those sets cover the same material as other sets that a student might have done?

All students progress through the same sets, if they didn't they wouldn't be getting a grasp of the entire system. Sets aren't skipped, because there aren't other sets that include the same things. You can't just rip out pieces of mantis and expect to understand the whole system. You have to include everything, even groundfighting.

Okay, 7* i have aquestion for you.

Why is it that you guys are taught Wah Lum forms?


I don't mean to start any trouble ,but it is widely known that Grandmaster Chan Poi created many of the Wah Lum forms taught within their system himself after his sifu had passed. He did learn some from a few of his seniors ,but this is not to say anything negative about Chan Poi because he is a remarkable martial artist ,but it is also known that many of the forms he created were done basicly for show.

So how does this help students with learning 7* Mantis?

Our beginner students are taught wah lum, because like we dicussed earlier, mantis (especially 7*) has a tendency to leave out core MA basics like punching and kicking. Learning 8 basic stances, and 8 basic kicks, and 8 basic punches, etc...(all wah lum) give a new MA student the basics they need to train in mantis. It helps them start getting the mantis movements down and get their balance, strength, cardio, and start getting the hang of things. Chan Poi's history is of no consequence to me. Wah Lum is a hard system to learn and is very good. It is more flashy, but its also a bit more basic as a whole and helps you "ease into it" if you will. Wah Lum is still mantis, so it helps by getting a student who has never done any martial arts used to the movements and all of mantis kung fu.

7sm

 

[Darksoul]

-I can relate to this, having not done martial arts in a number of years, its good to go back to basics, and thats where Wah Lum forms come in. After having been a "slug" for so long, its like relearning how to move. Remember that Mantis was once taught, as the story goes, as a higher level of kung-fu in the temple. A certain amount of training is required if one wants to progress to higher levels, practice forms that are more complicated, and Mantis can be quite complex to a newbie. All I know is that I love it, and training is more important to me than historical details. Its one of those situations where the point is to live in the moment, deal with here and now, right in front of you.


A---)

 

[Fumanchu]

7starmantis,

Quote: "Oh, yes, I see now. All 7 star shcools I've ever seen teach those as two sets, 1st routing (Yut) and 2nd routine (Ye). I dont really know how else to discuss with you since you are not willing to answer any questions about your instructor or training. I've never seen or heard of any 7 star people who train as you do with only 4 forms, I've also never heard of any 7 star schools that try hard to make no connection whatsoever to the mantis insect. That is why I was curious to know your lineage. I'm not saying your wrong, or not studying true mantis, but its hard to discuss further without some sort of understanding of what you do. I dont spend much time on weapons at all. Probably 15% of my training or so, maybe."

I did answer your question regarding my training. We do alot of random application work. In terms of forms, the orginal mantis kung fu started off with 3, Bung Bu, Laan Zhaat and 8 elbows. It remained this way for some time. We don't feel the need to make an association with the insect. What advantages do you see in making that association? Let me know if you have nay other questions and i'll try to answer them.

Quote: "Where did you get that understanding from? I dont know that I think it is neccessary to know every 7 star form accepted by any 7 star school in the world, but I do think it would take more than just the 4 basic forms you guys train in to really understand the system. There are principles and techniques, and concepts you are missing that are very core to the system."

They are not basic forms. Each form covers a significant degree of advancement from intermediate level kung fu to highly advanced. That's why we feel we have the core of the system. If we had been training 4 forms that are of Bung Bu level then no, we wouldn't have got the core of the system. With these 3 forms, mantis became famous during the 17 Century. It was only slightly later than Zaho Yao was added, this form means slightly different things to different branches. Some branches summerise the concepts within mantis whereas others summerise the key concepts within other northern systems. That's why i ask you 3 questions, why is it that zaho yao is associated at a beginner level in LKW's website? and what advantages do those other 30+ forms add to the original system? and when were those other forms added?

Quote: "Chi sau or more appropriately "jeem leem" is how you being learning how to use mantis in real situations, how to move from one techinque to the other, how to develop "feel" and learn to attack and control your opponents center as well as your own. Its mentioned in the artilce at the beginning of this thread.Its not a form, but a method of fighting. It starts very slow and picks up speed, power, and so forth and so on. Its one of the things I feel if you are missing you are not getting even a small glimpse of understanding of the system itself."

We move from one technique to the next quite naturally when the situation arises. This is attained through our partner training ( this might be what you call jeet leem - i'm not familiar with the chinese translation for most thing) and exercises which improve body co-ordination. Tactics and strategy at a "beginner level" (actually it's more like intermediate kung fu) are derived from Bung Bu.


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[RHD]

I dont know, but I would assume they probably do have some similarities. There are 12 soft and 8 hard principles in the mantis system, I would imagine there are similarities on both the hard and soft principles. I'll have to ask my sifu now, since his kung fu brother teaches hung gar.

[/size] Our beginner students are taught wah lum, because like we dicussed earlier, mantis (especially 7*) has a tendency to leave out core MA basics like punching and kicking. Learning 8 basic stances, and 8 basic kicks, and 8 basic punches, etc...(all wah lum) give a new MA student the basics they need to train in mantis. It helps them start getting the mantis movements down and get their balance, strength, cardio, and start getting the hang of things. Chan Poi's history is of no consequence to me. Wah Lum is a hard system to learn and is very good. It is more flashy, but its also a bit more basic as a whole and helps you "ease into it" if you will. Wah Lum is still mantis, so it helps by getting a student who has never done any martial arts used to the movements and all of mantis kung fu.

7sm

Cool, love to hear thier input!

As for the Wah Lum sets. I find this very interesting that mantis forms omit certain basics. I think it gives creedence to its origins as a system created by an already experienced fighter who would have known those things and have mastered them already. I may be wrong, but it would lead me to assume that mantis "back in the day" was something taught on the assumption that you already had the basics down. In other words, mantis was designed to "take it to another level". Very cool 7*, thanks for the tidbit. I can't say the same is true for Hung style, but I can say that I've been told over and over again that many of the greatest Southern style fighters of several different systems were Hung first.

Mike

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

-Remember that Mantis was once taught, as the story goes, as a higher level of kung-fu in the temple. A certain amount of training is required if one wants to progress to higher levels, practice forms that are more complicated, and Mantis can be quite complex to a newbie. A---)

You know i was actually expecting someone to say that alot earlier in this thread. That is why i said that saying it defeated shaolin arts was not correct.

At onetime Black Tiger was also seen as the highest level of shaolin training. I'm sure that there are other styles that would also make that claim. Black TYiger at one point after Su Hak Fu created it ,it was only taught to shaolin monks ,until he opened a school in canton.

Our beginner students are taught wah lum, because like we dicussed earlier, mantis (especially 7*) has a tendency to leave out core MA basics like punching and kicking. Learning 8 basic stances, and 8 basic kicks, and 8 basic punches, etc...(all wah lum) give a new MA student the basics they need to train in mantis. It helps them start getting the mantis movements down and get their balance, strength, cardio, and start getting the hang of things. Chan Poi's history is of no consequence to me. Wah Lum is a hard system to learn and is very good. It is more flashy, but its also a bit more basic as a whole and helps you "ease into it" if you will. Wah Lum is still mantis, so it helps by getting a student who has never done any martial arts used to the movements and all of mantis kung fu.

7sm

Well, I did not bring it up to make an issue of Wah Lum ,I was just curious as to why you guy's taught it ,and you answered my question.

Like i mentioned Chan Poi is an awesome martial artist and i have nothing but the utmost respect for him.

jeff