The 47 Ronin..truth vs legend.

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
I recently wrote a post about the 47 Ronin:

http://tgace.com/2013/12/15/47-ronin/

In a nutshell. Some scholars believe tuch of the "Legend" as we know it now is based on Meiji Era propaganda vs "the truth". While I don't know if anyone has all of the facts behind the "Ako Incident". I find some of the discussion and criticism attributed to the Samurai of the day kind of interesting.

While many people think that this was a classic example of “Bushido”, the Samurai of the day and even modern scholars of Japanese history are not so sure. One scholar succinctly puts the historic quandary like this:

The even greater ambiguity lies in the motivation and action of the ronin. They justified the attack as a vendetta (katakiuchi) on behalf of their lord, but in no way did the case fit either the legal or the customary definition of katakiuchi. Kira, after all, was not their master’s murderer: on the contrary, Asano had tried to murder Kira. Nor was there any justification for avenging the death of one’s lord, only that of a family member: the ronin even had to call on a Confucian scholar to come up with a textual basis for their action. Legalities aside, what was the underlying spirit of their act? Was it indeed personal loyalty to their lord, as the mainstream of the Chûshingura tradition would have it? Or was it a protest against the bakufu’s lenient treatment of Kira for his involvement in the incident? Or was it a simple matter of personal honor to carry out their master’s unfinished task? Or, as one school of interpretation would have it, were they impoverished samurai desperate for a new job and trying to prove their credentials?

 

Hyoho

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
811
Reaction score
376
The sad part is the two lords originally had been friends and did tea ceremony together. This is how they knew Kira would be at home at a Sohen Ryu ceremony.
 
OP
Tgace

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
The sad part is the two lords originally had been friends and did tea ceremony together. This is how they knew Kira would be at home at a Sohen Ryu ceremony.

I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?
 

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
541
Location
NH
I'm not really sure how that would fit in. I thought a central point to the events were that the ronin went forward as ordinary people for the following 2 years or so, they gained information by working as ordinary townspeople as Kira slowly put his guard down. Unless I'm misunderstanding?
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
I wish the new movie coming out was closer to reality then what it is. Monsters and white surfer dudes just killed a good story
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,434
Reaction score
9,216
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Although it is probably safe to say there were no monsters or surfer dudes, The Truth is a pretty murky subject anyway. Nobody really knows for sure what the reality was.
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
Although it is probably safe to say there were no monsters or surfer dudes, The Truth is a pretty murky subject anyway. Nobody really knows for sure what the reality was.

I ment closer to reality then bill or ted and monsters running around.
 
OP
Tgace

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
I wish the new movie coming out was closer to reality then what it is. Monsters and white surfer dudes just killed a good story

Agreed. This movie is a disgraceful twisting of the story...no matter what the truth may have been.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 

Hyoho

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
811
Reaction score
376
ThTE=Tgace;1615133]I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?[/QUOTE]

Sorry to respond so late. Fact. I used to do embu (sword demonstrations) for the Ryu every year. The purpose was to lament what happened and try to show that being friends in tea is the better option.

Two trains of thought in drawing the sword from seiza is it educates one to use the hips to cut. The second is that even sitting drinking tea one is still able to attack.
 
OP
Tgace

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
ThTE=Tgace;1615133]I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?

Sorry to respond so late. Fact. I used to do embu (sword demonstrations) for the Ryu every year. The purpose was to lament what happened and try to show that being friends in tea is the better option.

Two trains of thought in drawing the sword from seiza is it educates one to use the hips to cut. The second is that even sitting drinking tea one is still able to attack.[/QUOTE]

Ummm....ok.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 

Chris Parker

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
6,278
Reaction score
1,123
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I never heard that before....what source are you basing that on?

Sorry to respond so late. Fact. I used to do embu (sword demonstrations) for the Ryu every year. The purpose was to lament what happened and try to show that being friends in tea is the better option.

Two trains of thought in drawing the sword from seiza is it educates one to use the hips to cut. The second is that even sitting drinking tea one is still able to attack.

Interesting! I wasn't aware that the Kage Ryu had such a direct connection to the story of Chushingura.

On your comment, it would be remiss to not also mention systems such as Araki Ryu (and a number of others I know of that have similar waza) who teach a method of serving tea, with rather a dramatic, uh, flavour to it!


Tgace, what Hyoho is saying is that his information comes directly from a ryu (system) that is intimately involved in the story, and indeed has a number of aspects which relate specifically to it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,991
Reaction score
7,546
Location
Covington, WA
I've seen like three movie versions, and read the wiki page... Soo... I'm like an expert.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,991
Reaction score
7,546
Location
Covington, WA
Are you trying to say something, Steve?

Just trying to keep it light, Chris. My impression is that this story is very simmilar to some of Americas stories about the revolution. The crossing of the Delaware, or the midnight ride of Paul revere. Or King Arthur or Robin Hood. While the kernel of truth is there, based on some actual event, the "truth" of the story is pretty much lost.

Like other stories of its kind, this is a story that embodies many of the virtues that the Japanese value. And the historical truth of it is secondary.

My favorite version so far is the 1962 movie.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Spinedoc

Brown Belt
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
416
Reaction score
264
Location
Rochester, MN
Saw it yesterday. It was a good film. Won't post spoilers, but it was worth the ticket price.
 

Mauthos

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
813
Reaction score
14
Location
Bristol - UK
I have also seen this now with a good friend and we both agreed that it was a good film and quite a fitting tribute with a great deal of respect paid toward the true story that inspired the film.
 

Latest Discussions

Top