destructautomaton
Green Belt
i notice that some people teach a very strict program like chaiya and others teach a more opentype of program like col amnat on his dvds---is there more variety than that in thailand or it more along those two lines?
Thai Bare Knuckle
- Thread starter destructautomaton
- Start date
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Its understandable that there is so confusion in looking at the current scene in the thai bare knuckle arena. There are several lines to the situation and some might be more problematic than others.
General Amnat is really about bringing the old Thai texts of strategy, philosophy and science and using the bare knuckle systems to illustrate them. So he is using a generic template of techniques from the various old systems. A chiaya person might complain its not detailed as to the way they teach or a korat person but thats not the point really. His work is important to understanding the relationship of texts like the pichaisongkram and their relationship to the thai martial arts which would be hard for a regular foreigner to get in english. When linking them or showing them in comparison, he is bringing out the highlights of these systems for those who want to further investigate them in detail or pursue the study of the strategies or texts that run through them.
In grade schools into college phys ed, they have a program of "muay Boran" which means simply old or ancient boxing, where they grafted together a program from the various old bare knuckle systems as a way to use it as a safe physical activity that at once supports the thai cultural heritage as well as surviving in as a form of performance or activity. We see alot of foreigners in europe and the us gravitating toward this as the true be and end all when its just what it is, a mishmash of techniques without a defining root and strategy( meaning in korat, the structure of the stance and techniques follow the strategies of the style same as muay chaiya has its own distinct strategy and way of fighting and mae mai/look mai).
Muay Boran of course would be a term used for any of the old systems from tao sao, chaiya, korat, etc because it simply means the old ancient way of fighting which all of them are. When the old systems were active, they were just muay or fighting. For clarity, I leave muay boran distinction for systems which use a template of the various systems in a generic fashion and just use the actual names for the rest muay chaiya, muay korat etc since each is distinct and has a name which is exact to what it is.
Many of the chaiya people consider their system not only a complete system like the others including korat, tao sao, sakon nakorn, etc but also a form of cultural preservation. There is also confusion emanating from within muay chaiya with several teachers vying for a type of "grandmaster" mantle and using the internet for arguments and infomercials of varying degrees which adds further to the confusion. There are many good teachers of chaiya who continue the tradition in a pure honest way without any fanfare. Those who are interested in the system can seek them out with some effort and will find them more than capable of teaching the system in a direct manner.
Some people on websites and articles continue also to use old information like tao sao is off limits to foreigners and various other things like that which is old and not applicable anymore. They are just translating old texts or articles and generally have not trained in the systems or have updated the material through research.
The main thing for me in my training and my research was on finding the last of the masters who could apply these methods and produce the system that allowed a person to use them in the actual fight. So my approach was to find the utility and function with them which has been downgraded since many of the masters dont produce students that fight or steer the programs toward that much anymore. So again, if someone approaches it in that manner he might be met with several roadblocks and confusion as to what avenue of these systems is he learning.
General Amnat is really about bringing the old Thai texts of strategy, philosophy and science and using the bare knuckle systems to illustrate them. So he is using a generic template of techniques from the various old systems. A chiaya person might complain its not detailed as to the way they teach or a korat person but thats not the point really. His work is important to understanding the relationship of texts like the pichaisongkram and their relationship to the thai martial arts which would be hard for a regular foreigner to get in english. When linking them or showing them in comparison, he is bringing out the highlights of these systems for those who want to further investigate them in detail or pursue the study of the strategies or texts that run through them.
In grade schools into college phys ed, they have a program of "muay Boran" which means simply old or ancient boxing, where they grafted together a program from the various old bare knuckle systems as a way to use it as a safe physical activity that at once supports the thai cultural heritage as well as surviving in as a form of performance or activity. We see alot of foreigners in europe and the us gravitating toward this as the true be and end all when its just what it is, a mishmash of techniques without a defining root and strategy( meaning in korat, the structure of the stance and techniques follow the strategies of the style same as muay chaiya has its own distinct strategy and way of fighting and mae mai/look mai).
Muay Boran of course would be a term used for any of the old systems from tao sao, chaiya, korat, etc because it simply means the old ancient way of fighting which all of them are. When the old systems were active, they were just muay or fighting. For clarity, I leave muay boran distinction for systems which use a template of the various systems in a generic fashion and just use the actual names for the rest muay chaiya, muay korat etc since each is distinct and has a name which is exact to what it is.
Many of the chaiya people consider their system not only a complete system like the others including korat, tao sao, sakon nakorn, etc but also a form of cultural preservation. There is also confusion emanating from within muay chaiya with several teachers vying for a type of "grandmaster" mantle and using the internet for arguments and infomercials of varying degrees which adds further to the confusion. There are many good teachers of chaiya who continue the tradition in a pure honest way without any fanfare. Those who are interested in the system can seek them out with some effort and will find them more than capable of teaching the system in a direct manner.
Some people on websites and articles continue also to use old information like tao sao is off limits to foreigners and various other things like that which is old and not applicable anymore. They are just translating old texts or articles and generally have not trained in the systems or have updated the material through research.
The main thing for me in my training and my research was on finding the last of the masters who could apply these methods and produce the system that allowed a person to use them in the actual fight. So my approach was to find the utility and function with them which has been downgraded since many of the masters dont produce students that fight or steer the programs toward that much anymore. So again, if someone approaches it in that manner he might be met with several roadblocks and confusion as to what avenue of these systems is he learning.
I cannot be certain, but the way I see it, there were no Muay Korat or Muay Chaiya in war. There was only the Pichaisongkram-the art of war.
What worked and that's it.
I guess that is why gen. Amnat didn't focus on styles but showed principles and tactics that are common to both styles and others.
This tells me that if there is a common ground for these styles, then they must have originated and evolved from the same place and evolved independently.
It has already been said somewhere else on the forum, but the various systems evolved after the war was over and the masters started teaching and experimenting, and maybe somehow codified the styles.
Yes it's true I never came across people talking about or even mentioning the Pichaisongkram, except Gen Amnat, which is a bit odd when I see many people-especially KK people-talking about how KK was used in the battlefields and so it is absolutely effective and deadly.
I was lucky enough to be told why this or that action or movement is performed in a certain way, and it lead to the Pichaisongkram in the end.
Not that I studied the manual, but they were clear explanations that made it alive and clear and it does make a difference to me knowing the reasons behind the action.
What worked and that's it.
I guess that is why gen. Amnat didn't focus on styles but showed principles and tactics that are common to both styles and others.
This tells me that if there is a common ground for these styles, then they must have originated and evolved from the same place and evolved independently.
It has already been said somewhere else on the forum, but the various systems evolved after the war was over and the masters started teaching and experimenting, and maybe somehow codified the styles.
Yes it's true I never came across people talking about or even mentioning the Pichaisongkram, except Gen Amnat, which is a bit odd when I see many people-especially KK people-talking about how KK was used in the battlefields and so it is absolutely effective and deadly.
I was lucky enough to be told why this or that action or movement is performed in a certain way, and it lead to the Pichaisongkram in the end.
Not that I studied the manual, but they were clear explanations that made it alive and clear and it does make a difference to me knowing the reasons behind the action.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
fede
Thats a good point. Amnat is using old knowledge and showing how it runs through the context of what would be a further down the line development which is bare knuckle. Bare knuckle was something that developed from out of the bigger universe of techniques used at the time to become a sport. Bare knuckle was also a test of manhood and strength. Many people assume bare knuckle was an old battlefield art but what was lifted from the battlefield matrix was the principles and techniques that went into forming a sport. Same as in the development of ring muay thai. There was a wielding of the old bare knuckle techniques with gloved hand techniques and rules to develop a new arsenal that became muay thai. Many people have a hard time indentifying how and what was used from the old days that became primary techniques and tactics of ring muay thai since its evolution because of a poor understanding of the old styles.But throughout we see an underlying theory and principle running through the thai martial arts.
Thats a good point. Amnat is using old knowledge and showing how it runs through the context of what would be a further down the line development which is bare knuckle. Bare knuckle was something that developed from out of the bigger universe of techniques used at the time to become a sport. Bare knuckle was also a test of manhood and strength. Many people assume bare knuckle was an old battlefield art but what was lifted from the battlefield matrix was the principles and techniques that went into forming a sport. Same as in the development of ring muay thai. There was a wielding of the old bare knuckle techniques with gloved hand techniques and rules to develop a new arsenal that became muay thai. Many people have a hard time indentifying how and what was used from the old days that became primary techniques and tactics of ring muay thai since its evolution because of a poor understanding of the old styles.But throughout we see an underlying theory and principle running through the thai martial arts.
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destructautomaton
Green Belt
thanks all interesting stuff as always--i like col amnats dvds and i will get his supplemental dvds too---look forward also to training with him in thailand when i get the chance--i willhopefully get the chance for some muaychaiiya training too.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
There are numerous sources of muay chaiya in thailand and several vcd and dvds available for you to check out as well.
Great stuff indeed, I am glad there is some information on the the difference between bare knuckle and the battlefield, that's a rare thing but it's just too interesting.
Destructo I think you will love Gen Amnat's supplement dvds, it's a clear and detailed teaching, good luck for your training in Thailand.
Destructo I think you will love Gen Amnat's supplement dvds, it's a clear and detailed teaching, good luck for your training in Thailand.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
DA; I am advocate of always getting a well rounded view so everything you put into learning all the avenues and pathways will give you clear sight to actually find where you want to go when you get to thailand and eventually to your teacher and path. Its sometimes time consuming. It took me a very long time to find the teachers and paths that suited me and my pursuit of knowledge.
There are many who are jaded and close minded, so try to keep yourself open and free. Dont get pulled into anyones limiting agendas.
A journey should be enlightening and full of growth potential.
There are many who are jaded and close minded, so try to keep yourself open and free. Dont get pulled into anyones limiting agendas.
A journey should be enlightening and full of growth potential.
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destructautomaton
Green Belt
i communicated with some chiaya people and it seems they have a very set view of things and there is bickering or what have you between them i hope it not all thesame with others but i get the impression its not from the posts on hereand on other forums but it makes me think twice about them.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Well, these sort of things happen within systems. Their teacher the late Kru Tong was a hard task master and he kept everyone in line and supervised all those who taught when he was alive. He cared deeply about the art and its cultural preservation as established by his own teacher the late Kru Khetr. The system owes its enormous popularity to the teachings and writings of Kru Khetr who was a very vocal proponent for the art's survival which was sustained after his death by the late Kru Tong.
There remains many other viable teachers including direct students of Kru Khetr and direct students of Kru Tong who also teach. The other teachers mostly take a more quiet approach to teaching.
Most important is the fact is the late Kru Tong left no designated successor prior to his death, so anyone assuming the mantle of "grandmaster" or that sort of thing should not be believed. Kru Tong's daughter and his brother maintain contact with most of the teachers in his line and try to keep the peace.
I trained with many of these teachers, heard it all, and I found teachers who finally just taught out of sincerity and honesty. It's an interesting system which is very popular but also don't discount Muay Korat and the others.
Muay Korat's fighting history as well as korat being a fertile breeding ground for fighters even today is every bit as good as any bare knuckle system in thailand. It has a deep history, direct progression and training and an unbroken line from one of the last bare knuckle fighters, the late Kru Bua who fought, taught and accurately documented the system as well as his life before his death. Many people in the military where directly taught by Kru Bua as well during his lifetime.
There remains many other viable teachers including direct students of Kru Khetr and direct students of Kru Tong who also teach. The other teachers mostly take a more quiet approach to teaching.
Most important is the fact is the late Kru Tong left no designated successor prior to his death, so anyone assuming the mantle of "grandmaster" or that sort of thing should not be believed. Kru Tong's daughter and his brother maintain contact with most of the teachers in his line and try to keep the peace.
I trained with many of these teachers, heard it all, and I found teachers who finally just taught out of sincerity and honesty. It's an interesting system which is very popular but also don't discount Muay Korat and the others.
Muay Korat's fighting history as well as korat being a fertile breeding ground for fighters even today is every bit as good as any bare knuckle system in thailand. It has a deep history, direct progression and training and an unbroken line from one of the last bare knuckle fighters, the late Kru Bua who fought, taught and accurately documented the system as well as his life before his death. Many people in the military where directly taught by Kru Bua as well during his lifetime.
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destructautomaton
Green Belt
i am very interested in korat style as well as tasao they both seem very fascinating and deep.
It seems that muay Korat is devoid of politics and publicity, the opposite of muay Chaiya. IN fact there is so little material about muay Korat, and as Vincent said it doesn't mean there aren't teachers or students training.
I heard from my teacher that they keep it really quiet and real, no publicity which is a good thing in my opinion.
I heard from my teacher that they keep it really quiet and real, no publicity which is a good thing in my opinion.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
The problem with some of the other systems is not in teaching but in where the classes are. Some teachers are very quiet and just teach in their backyards. Some have only sporadic classes or classes one day a week, so it becomes hard to immerse yourself over a short period of time. Whereas the other classes like muay chaiya are available and can be trained sometimes up to seven days a week. So its not the other systems cant be had or learned but its getting to the teachers and spending enough time to learn them.
The other thing one finds in thailand is often geographical distance. Even within bangkok, getting from one side to the other during certain times can be a nightmare. So doing multiple things can be daunting or they need to be worked out in advance so you can get all the training you need done.
So some teachers and systems like muay chaiya, gen amnat and others offer multiple classes and can be found and trained. Add to that the rise of muay boran brand of training with their numerous teachers, training and gradings and you see why people seem to gravitate toward them. This has certainly given rise to their popularity with foreigners.
I remember going to thailand to live in my muay thai camp which I still do usually every trip to base myself out of. There was such a lack of information and details the first time i went that it was alot of groundwork and recommendations to find a great camp. Today there is almost a weekly deluge of camp details and new websites. I am sure in time, all the thai martial arts will slowly become more commercial and open and of course access will become easier.
The other thing one finds in thailand is often geographical distance. Even within bangkok, getting from one side to the other during certain times can be a nightmare. So doing multiple things can be daunting or they need to be worked out in advance so you can get all the training you need done.
So some teachers and systems like muay chaiya, gen amnat and others offer multiple classes and can be found and trained. Add to that the rise of muay boran brand of training with their numerous teachers, training and gradings and you see why people seem to gravitate toward them. This has certainly given rise to their popularity with foreigners.
I remember going to thailand to live in my muay thai camp which I still do usually every trip to base myself out of. There was such a lack of information and details the first time i went that it was alot of groundwork and recommendations to find a great camp. Today there is almost a weekly deluge of camp details and new websites. I am sure in time, all the thai martial arts will slowly become more commercial and open and of course access will become easier.
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destructautomaton
Green Belt
thanks for your response i suppose people like myself went for the only information we could findmeaning what was on youtube and websites but now i see its not as reliable as i thought hopefully there will be more on the other systems soon as i am interested.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Well, some of the information that is available in English is self serving, more a promotional device intermixed with intelligent information. Nothing wrong with that long as you how to separate out whats real and whats not.
People want a quick, easy entry for them to gain information and train so the sites are the ones that people generally get their information from. I think with any body of knowledge one needs to do at least a minimal of homework, before diving in behind it, to determine if the information is indeed accurate and factual.
Some I found are direct translations from manuscripts and articles without any acknowledgment of source(we see this alot) so one would think this person really understands and has done extensive research and training when its just a straight translation and nothing more.
Some are really commercials to come and train with this "authentic" teacher vs another "authentic" teacher and silliness like that. Thus drawing you into something most people have little concern for especially after spending money to travel half way around the world to train.
It seems Westerners concern themselves primarily with elevating their teachers to some status which thus elevates them. We see the mistakes and the blunders that have ensued when they have incorrectly picked the false prophet to elevate and the problems that follow. The teachers now look for those who want to elevate them and spread the gospel so one can easily spot this type of thing a mile away.
My point is dont discount the quiet, unassuming ones who just teach out of love and devotion. They might not be well known or want to exploit every angle but you might be surprised at the voluminous arsenal they possess and the deep knowledge you can acquire from them.
It takes time to search but its always worth it in the end.
People want a quick, easy entry for them to gain information and train so the sites are the ones that people generally get their information from. I think with any body of knowledge one needs to do at least a minimal of homework, before diving in behind it, to determine if the information is indeed accurate and factual.
Some I found are direct translations from manuscripts and articles without any acknowledgment of source(we see this alot) so one would think this person really understands and has done extensive research and training when its just a straight translation and nothing more.
Some are really commercials to come and train with this "authentic" teacher vs another "authentic" teacher and silliness like that. Thus drawing you into something most people have little concern for especially after spending money to travel half way around the world to train.
It seems Westerners concern themselves primarily with elevating their teachers to some status which thus elevates them. We see the mistakes and the blunders that have ensued when they have incorrectly picked the false prophet to elevate and the problems that follow. The teachers now look for those who want to elevate them and spread the gospel so one can easily spot this type of thing a mile away.
My point is dont discount the quiet, unassuming ones who just teach out of love and devotion. They might not be well known or want to exploit every angle but you might be surprised at the voluminous arsenal they possess and the deep knowledge you can acquire from them.
It takes time to search but its always worth it in the end.
That was a clear and nice picture of the current situation, Vincent.
I agree, teachers boast and confuse people with different unreferenced statements and either elevate themselves or let their students elevate them. And they often put up different fronts to cover weak points or unanswered questions if the situation requires it.
As for the quiet teachers who teach to make a living or out of passion, well there's no need to boast and claim this and that, it's just hard work, no more no less. And nothing special! Nothing to boast for as it is just routine and practice/teaching and continuing the work of their teachers like they had done berfore.
So to me, if somebody shows off like many do, it's to cover something and/or because they have big egos.
I agree, teachers boast and confuse people with different unreferenced statements and either elevate themselves or let their students elevate them. And they often put up different fronts to cover weak points or unanswered questions if the situation requires it.
As for the quiet teachers who teach to make a living or out of passion, well there's no need to boast and claim this and that, it's just hard work, no more no less. And nothing special! Nothing to boast for as it is just routine and practice/teaching and continuing the work of their teachers like they had done berfore.
So to me, if somebody shows off like many do, it's to cover something and/or because they have big egos.
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destructautomaton
Green Belt
looks like my trip into thailand will take me north around chiangmi i heard they have northern styles to train in but do they have bare knuckle too?a college roomate relocated there so i can stay much longer now
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
DK: The northern material is wonderful. They have a deep lineage and the teachers are nice. Some of the real old teachers are still up there too. Some young ones who have been at it a long time as well are coming into their own. They are deeply traditional the ones i met.
I met an old bare knuckle lanna fighter on my earliest trips to Bangkok way back when. I actually met his son and he said his grandfather who at the time was like 85 years old (so he was old enough to be at the end of the bare knuckle era having been born in 1907) So he fought during the period, watched it go into decline and then saw the eventual rise of muay thai first hand. So interesting. But his hands were like rocks. he was a vibrant, alive 85. He said they fought without wraps and preferred it. I was impressed with his knowledge and his recollection of his life. The old man said he also fought up north against the burmese a few times and they fought without any kind of wraps against thim the few times he fought them. He returned up north later with his family after I had gone home to NY. When I got back the following year, he died. Sad, nobody really documented him outside of my short interview which was not enough by any means and my camera was bad so i missed alot myself.
Investigate all you can from weapons to bare knuckle.
I met an old bare knuckle lanna fighter on my earliest trips to Bangkok way back when. I actually met his son and he said his grandfather who at the time was like 85 years old (so he was old enough to be at the end of the bare knuckle era having been born in 1907) So he fought during the period, watched it go into decline and then saw the eventual rise of muay thai first hand. So interesting. But his hands were like rocks. he was a vibrant, alive 85. He said they fought without wraps and preferred it. I was impressed with his knowledge and his recollection of his life. The old man said he also fought up north against the burmese a few times and they fought without any kind of wraps against thim the few times he fought them. He returned up north later with his family after I had gone home to NY. When I got back the following year, he died. Sad, nobody really documented him outside of my short interview which was not enough by any means and my camera was bad so i missed alot myself.
Investigate all you can from weapons to bare knuckle.
That is very interesting indeed, first hand information from the bare knuckle era, or the end of it.
My teacher showed me footage of his training and teacher in the northern hills, and there were many teachers including an old man who looked in his 70s/80s as well and still performed muay, so they are surely the ones you trained with. The impression I had was that of a tight community, and even if they don't live all in the same area they still meet for wai kruu and in other occasions.
It's interesting because the last (I think) person who still makes daab in the old way also lives up there.
My teacher showed me footage of his training and teacher in the northern hills, and there were many teachers including an old man who looked in his 70s/80s as well and still performed muay, so they are surely the ones you trained with. The impression I had was that of a tight community, and even if they don't live all in the same area they still meet for wai kruu and in other occasions.
It's interesting because the last (I think) person who still makes daab in the old way also lives up there.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Beautiful swords in the north. I hope the old swordmaker is still active and alive.
They have a unique and very active tradition in the north that has been rarely explored for the most part.
The bare knuckle tradition probably has always been active as well due to its close proximity to burma and laos. They have for the most part been the locale for the yearly burma vs thailand clashes for decades.
Documentation especially by the Thais was never all that good within the bare knuckle traditions. The Thais let things lapse really and then picked it up again when it became popular in the late 90s after Ong Bak. So they missed a lot of actually documenting and recording the old masters. You see the mad scramble for old books and the recent rash of translations slapped up on websites.
Many people take this material for actual mastery or understanding but most of it is straight up translation without citing source.
The Thais also like to romanticize history or rewrite backwards as a researcher told me. Every popular battle is a "krabi krabong" battle and every famous warrior had the secret bare knuckle tactics. They inject the specific martial arts or martial arts tactic into a vague history.
They have a unique and very active tradition in the north that has been rarely explored for the most part.
The bare knuckle tradition probably has always been active as well due to its close proximity to burma and laos. They have for the most part been the locale for the yearly burma vs thailand clashes for decades.
Documentation especially by the Thais was never all that good within the bare knuckle traditions. The Thais let things lapse really and then picked it up again when it became popular in the late 90s after Ong Bak. So they missed a lot of actually documenting and recording the old masters. You see the mad scramble for old books and the recent rash of translations slapped up on websites.
Many people take this material for actual mastery or understanding but most of it is straight up translation without citing source.
The Thais also like to romanticize history or rewrite backwards as a researcher told me. Every popular battle is a "krabi krabong" battle and every famous warrior had the secret bare knuckle tactics. They inject the specific martial arts or martial arts tactic into a vague history.
