Testing

[DArnold]

For those instructors that have delved into the mental?

When and how do you test your students mental capabilities.
(And I don't mean written exams before testing)

 

[DArnold]

Are there no instructors on this site?

 

[wade]

You do realize that learning patience is one of the mental virtues you need to develop, don't you? You have been tested and...........................

 

[Blindside]

Are there no instructors on this site?

Lots, are you opening up this question to the board as a whole or just the TKD folks?

It may be helpful to specify what you mean by "mental aspects", are you having your students bend spoons with just their thoughts?

Lamont

 

[FearlessFreep]

are you having your students bend spoons with just their thoughts?


There is no spoon

 

[bluekey88]

are you having your students bend spoons with just their thoughts?


There is no spoon

Then how on earth will I eat my pudding?

To the OP, what do you mean by mental training? Are we talking about measuring intelligence? (best left to professionals) Are we talking more about mentla toughness and/or heart? (developed through our training hopefully)

Could you be more specific?

Peace,
Erik

 

[DArnold]

Then how on earth will I eat my pudding?

To the OP, what do you mean by mental training? Are we talking about measuring intelligence? (best left to professionals) Are we talking more about mentla toughness and/or heart? (developed through our training hopefully)

Could you be more specific?

Peace,
Erik

Here is a basic example, one most use without thinking about: When you have your students break their first board they are usually frightened. As most practioners know, that just by putting up your leg and leaning foreward you can go through 1 board(adults). This is a mental test, not a physical one.

Other than these obvious tests what have you come up with to test the tenets or student oath?

 

[terryl965]

Here is a basic example, one most use without thinking about: When you have your students break their first board they are usually frightened. As most practioners know, that just by putting up your leg and leaning foreward you can go through 1 board(adults). This is a mental test, not a physical one.

Other than these obvious tests what have you come up with to test the tenets or student oath?

one thing is by asking them to do more then they can and see if they are mentally ready to push pass the pain to achieve the goals that have been set. Also to see if they are ready by doing things out of the ordinary like doing the Poomsae backwards last move to first. Also having them do something for the outside world that they normannly would not.

 

[Laurentkd]

Here is a basic example, one most use without thinking about: When you have your students break their first board they are usually frightened. As most practioners know, that just by putting up your leg and leaning foreward you can go through 1 board(adults). This is a mental test, not a physical one.

Other than these obvious tests what have you come up with to test the tenets or student oath?

Hmmm... ok, now I understand what you are asking.
For black belt we do a 5 minute horse stance. This is done after the test is completely over, after you have received your new fancy belt, and is the first official act you do as a black belt. This motivates them to have a really good stance (not just a little bend in the knees). As you can imagine, at this point they are physically, mentally, and emotionally drained. The horse stance is thus not a physical test, but a mental one to see how you are going to accept the temporary pain and mentally tell yourself that you are going to hold that stance. This is a personal test as well because you have already received your belt. It is what the student is proud of for themselves, not what they are doing to pass the test. Of everything we do in the black belt test, this is the one that gets talked about (with fondness) the most.

 

[IcemanSK]

I have mixed feelings about the story I'm going to tell. It's what a friend of mine did at his school.

The student was a really high achieving high school kid (straight A's, Eagle Scout) & never had much failure in his life. At his first test, the instructor had him try a 2 board break with his hand. He didn't do it. Periodically, he'd try again before his next test. Never was able to do it, try as he might. He wouldn't give up trying. At his next test, he tried again & failed again. The student simply bowed & sat down. The instructor, "congratulations, you've learned to fail with dignity."

A long & odd (IMO) way to teach that, but that was the lesson.

 

[DArnold]

I have mixed feelings about the story I'm going to tell. It's what a friend of mine did at his school.

The student was a really high achieving high school kid (straight A's, Eagle Scout) & never had much failure in his life. At his first test, the instructor had him try a 2 board break with his hand. He didn't do it. Periodically, he'd try again before his next test. Never was able to do it, try as he might. He wouldn't give up trying. At his next test, he tried again & failed again. The student simply bowed & sat down. The instructor, "congratulations, you've learned to fail with dignity."

A long & odd (IMO) way to teach that, but that was the lesson.

As students do learn from failure in life, unlike soccar, not everyone gets a medal or succeeds!

It is a wise instructor that know what the student needs and is not afraid to go there (for fear of loosing the student if you test them).

Knowing the psychological make up of a student allows you to challenge them. With one student I could say 50 push ups and they would love it. With yet another they would quit! Knowing the difference is the mastery

Great Story
Thanks:asian:

 

[Kwan Jang]

It depends on the level of the student. On a first or second dan test, we are looking for 12 weeks of the student on a pretty strict regimine of nutrition (5-6 meals per day, ect.), resistance training (bodyweight exercises for kids, weight training for adults) and cardio (at least 3x/wk) prior to the test. This daily routine is a large part of the test in itself, then on the actual conditioning portion of the test, we take them farther than they have ever been. If you look on Tom Callos' Ultimate Black Belt Test website, you'll at least get a good idea of a lot of the stuff we do. Tom's a fellow 6th dan under my instructor who has kind of gone off and done his own thing, but his format was based on our BB testing. He did throw in a few things of his own like the "being blind for a day", ect. He also cut out some of our more extreme physical stuff.

On a testing for 4th degree and above, we go on the same format as "hell week" in BUDS for Navy SEAL hopefuls. They/we get hit with everything from tandem parachute jumps to sweat lodges. The testing is 5 days and 4 nights with very limited sleep and food intake. It's one thing to perform well under peak conditions, but quite another to do so under these extreme conditions and really let's you know what you are made of. Everyone who is 4th dan or higher goes through it every time there is a testing regardless if you are going up for rank that year or not. We are having one in ten weeks and I get to play again. My joke is "KJN Ernie sure knows how to throw a party, but the catering leaves a bit to be desired.

 

[DArnold]

It depends on the level of the student. On a first or second dan test, we are looking for 12 weeks of the student on a pretty strict regimine of nutrition (5-6 meals per day, ect.), resistance training (bodyweight exercises for kids, weight training for adults) and cardio (at least 3x/wk) prior to the test. This daily routine is a large part of the test in itself, then on the actual conditioning portion of the test, we take them farther than they have ever been. If you look on Tom Callos' Ultimate Black Belt Test website, you'll at least get a good idea of a lot of the stuff we do. Tom's a fellow 6th dan under my instructor who has kind of gone off and done his own thing, but his format was based on our BB testing. He did throw in a few things of his own like the "being blind for a day", ect. He also cut out some of our more extreme physical stuff.

On a testing for 4th degree and above, we go on the same format as "hell week" in BUDS for Navy SEAL hopefuls. They/we get hit with everything from tandem parachute jumps to sweat lodges. The testing is 5 days and 4 nights with very limited sleep and food intake. It's one thing to perform well under peak conditions, but quite another to do so under these extreme conditions and really let's you know what you are made of. Everyone who is 4th dan or higher goes through it every time there is a testing regardless if you are going up for rank that year or not. We are having one in ten weeks and I get to play again. My joke is "KJN Ernie sure knows how to throw a party, but the catering leaves a bit to be desired.

Physical endurance is a great test of the mental.
But it is only one.
Do you have others?

 

[Kwan Jang]

Well, we have done firewalks, we have done exercises that you put an arrow to your throat and against a wall and break the arrow (pre-frame for the firewalk...there is really nothing to it physically, but it's a good way of overcoming fear and false perceptions). The same guy (Tolly Burkan) that ran the firewalk had us do a "rebirthing" drill in which you breathe in and out as deep and fast as you possibly can for two hours straight. This causes both some unusual physical reactions as well as an altered state of conciousness and perception of time.

We have done a lot of teamwork and cooperation drills used by both the military and corperate trainers. One was using teamwork on getting as many of your teammates up an obsticle course suspended between redwood trees much higher off the ground than someone with my fear of heights likes to be. We've done the log drills used by special forces groups and the sand crawls. I used to do personal protection and my partner was an ex-SEAL and he used to tell me how tough that crawl was and I used to give him a hard time about it. ("Cry me a river, you wimp. Now go see if you can balance a ball on your nose. I may even give you a fish") When I went through it myself, I was eating crow. I did it, but it was far tougher than I ever imagined.

We've done drills with SWAT teams going into training situations where we go into a building with an unknown number of gunmen and we have to ignore the pleas of the wounded and head towards the sounds of the shots to take down the bad guysand deal with a hostage situation. Even though it's not real, the simulation is realistic enough to play with your head. It really gives you an appreciation of what these guys go through. A lot of our guys (myself included) are certified tactical trainers, but it gives you a new perspective to experience even a slight taste of what some of the guys you train really go through.

We also did drills with Frank Cucchi and some of his guys with scenario training of how the SEAL teams will go into hostile territory in an abandoned building and you have to deal with both non-hostiles coming at you and some of his guys in RAMCAT armor. Frank also had us do some of the water exercises that those guys go through including swimming with your hands bound behind your back. You really have to keep calm and in control since the water makes equals of us all. Another drill we did was being lined up in the room that they use for tear gas and then after the gas is released, stay calm enough to walk out as a group in an orderly controlled fashion.

DArnold, you talked about the physical endurance, but to my way of thinking, MA's are a form of education through the physical. To keep your focus and performance through the different conditions is IMO about the ultimate in mental training. It's far more challenging than changing directions on forms or mixing them, ect.(BTW, we do throw those curves at some of the underbelts). When you ask about the "mental" side, are you asking about strategy, self-discipline, or something else? If it's about the discipline, look at Tom's Ultimate Black Belt Test website for the training requirements throughout the year. It is very similar to what we have to all go through. It's not just about the week of the test, it's more about the 12-18 months of pushing through your comfort zones to consistantly drive yourself.

 

[DArnold]

DArnold, you talked about the physical endurance, but to my way of thinking, MA's are a form of education through the physical. To keep your focus and performance through the different conditions is IMO about the ultimate in mental training. It's far more challenging than changing directions on forms or mixing them, ect.(BTW, we do throw those curves at some of the underbelts). When you ask about the "mental" side, are you asking about strategy, self-discipline, or something else?

AHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAA

Do you follow Confucianism or neo-Confucianism

..MA's are a form of education through the physical.
Without the discipline of the mind would you be able to perservere in the physical test you state? Do you not have those that give up due to their will?

Strategy is wisdom
Self-discipline - physical or mental - can you have one without the other?

If one can endure physical pain, does it follow that they will make the correct decision when encountered with social problems?

A student may endure physical training but what if they use it for say... egotistical purposes, to hurt others, to take advantage of others?

You can teach a monkey how to punch and kick - can you teach him moral culture?

As an instructor are you responsible for the student that you are putting a gun in their hands? Or is it just and aerobic exercise for money?

 

[Kwan Jang]

I am going to try to post this one more time as a test. I got back yesterday from a family trip and tried to respond twice and neither posts came up.

 

[Kwan Jang]

OK, now that I know it will go through this time, I will give my reply:
DArnold,
I am a bit confused at where you are going with this and what you are really asking for. When you talk about the mental aspects of training and testing these, could you be a bit more specific? I will try to awnser as honestly and completely as I can, but so far I am apparently failing your test. Regarding the mental aspects, are you looking for the personal growth aspects, strategy, how well they score on the Terman index or how well they perform the "jedi mind trick"?

Since your last post seemed to focus more on the topic of character education, I will try to awnser that aspect. All of our school age children participate in the Jefferson Center's "STAR in the Martial Arts" Program as a year round character ed. program. I was the Co-Chairman of the Sumner County (Tn.) School Board's Committee on Character Education when our local schools put in a systemized character ed. program in the guidance classes in grades K-12. I also volunteer my time at the local schools giving talks on non-violent conflict resolution. Obviously, I incorperate this into my own classes on a higher level since I have much more time with them. As a tactical trainer, I go into depth with my adult students about the use of force ladder and their legal responsibilities regarding self defense and personal protection. Our assn. also requires all of our 3rd dan candidates to complete Tony Robbin's 30 day program on personal development prior to testing. We also use messages of the week and incorperate different character themes and topics within each class to help students develop life skills not just by osmosis, but in a systamized and specific manner.

When I mentioned education through the physical, that is the medium we use in the martial arts. "To develop oneself physically, mentally, spiritually and with good character" begins with the physical since this is the doorway to the other characteristics within a physical art form. If you will be more specific and less vague, I will do my best to awnser your questions.