Terminology questions - combining grappling with striking

skribs

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There's a lot of concepts you pick up along the way, that you're not sure of the name. And sometimes that makes it hard to discuss them, especially on a forum where 99% of the content is text. Similarly, another divide is that striking and grappling are generally thought of as two separate genres (because most arts with a competitive focus disallow one or the other).

So I want your guys' help with my terminology. With each concept below, I'll put in bold my name for the concept, and you can help me out. In some cases I'll have the name right, but maybe need help with the concept.

The idea here is that all of these must combine grappling and striking techniques in some way.

  1. Clearing Hands - a concept in Wing Chun, among others. Essentially, you break down your opponents guard by literally breaking it down. Pull their hand away from their head with one hand and strike with the other.
  2. Clinch - most prolific in Muay Thai, used in wrestling (but not applicable since wrestling doesn't allow strikes). The idea is to get inside leverage on them and keep their weapons boxed out, so you can strike with your knees or with a free hand.
  3. Breaks - obviously not allowed in competition. The idea is to use grappling to set up a strike that will attack another joint. For example, a wrist-lock with one hand and a strike to the elbow with the other, or using the hands to turn someone for a side-kick to the side of their knee. Is there a term to differentiate these from breaks using leverage?
  4. Outside Leverage - common in our Taekwondo curriculum, and probably a lot of Karate curriculums as well. The goal is to grab one hand of your enemy, and use your footwork to get outside that hand. From here, your enemy cannot attack with that hand (as it is grabbed) and cannot use the other hand as it must go across his body. You, on the other hand, have a free hand (or two, if you give up the leverage to throw a strike, as you still have an advantaged position), and two free legs. Is there a term for this other than "outside leverage"?
  5. Throw-Down - as opposed to a "take-down" where you go down with your opponent as you would see in wrestling or BJJ, this is a take-down where you stay standing or kneeling over your opponent. You can then re-stomp the groin (as in Ameri-do-te), or go for a punch to the head (which will bounce their head off the ground). It also leaves you in a standing position for the next attacker. How would you differentiate between "throw down" and "take down" as I have described?
  6. Ground-and-Pound - basically you sit on the opponent and bludgeon them with your fists. You use your legs and your body weight to remove any guard they may have and just rain blows from on high.
  7. Set-Up - the opposite of most of the above. Using strikes to get your opponent off-kilter, and then switch to grappling. The strikes could be aimed at moving their guard, dazing them for a second, or getting their eyes high before shooting low. Is there another term for this? Or does "set-up" cover it?
  8. Shocks - when you have a clinch or outside leverage and want to transition to a take-down or throw-down. Alternatively, when you have a joint isolated or are close to a submission hold and need to throw in a few blows to soften them up to finish the hold. "Shock" is the term at my school for any technique which purpose is to cause pain to allow you to proceed through to the next step of the combination. It also applies to pain compliance holds used to gain leverage. What term would you use for these strikes?
Did I miss any concepts? Did I bungle any concepts? Do you have different names for the concepts I've discussed?
 

hoshin1600

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Breaks - obviously not allowed in competition. The idea is to use grappling to set up a strike that will attack another joint. For example, a wrist-lock with one hand and a strike to the elbow with the other, or using the hands to turn someone for a side-kick to the side of their knee. Is there a term to differentiate these from breaks using leverage?
i prefer "limb destruction" for striking joints
 

Gerry Seymour

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There's a lot of concepts you pick up along the way, that you're not sure of the name. And sometimes that makes it hard to discuss them, especially on a forum where 99% of the content is text. Similarly, another divide is that striking and grappling are generally thought of as two separate genres (because most arts with a competitive focus disallow one or the other).

So I want your guys' help with my terminology. With each concept below, I'll put in bold my name for the concept, and you can help me out. In some cases I'll have the name right, but maybe need help with the concept.

The idea here is that all of these must combine grappling and striking techniques in some way.

  1. Clearing Hands - a concept in Wing Chun, among others. Essentially, you break down your opponents guard by literally breaking it down. Pull their hand away from their head with one hand and strike with the other.
  2. Clinch - most prolific in Muay Thai, used in wrestling (but not applicable since wrestling doesn't allow strikes). The idea is to get inside leverage on them and keep their weapons boxed out, so you can strike with your knees or with a free hand.
  3. Breaks - obviously not allowed in competition. The idea is to use grappling to set up a strike that will attack another joint. For example, a wrist-lock with one hand and a strike to the elbow with the other, or using the hands to turn someone for a side-kick to the side of their knee. Is there a term to differentiate these from breaks using leverage?
  4. Outside Leverage - common in our Taekwondo curriculum, and probably a lot of Karate curriculums as well. The goal is to grab one hand of your enemy, and use your footwork to get outside that hand. From here, your enemy cannot attack with that hand (as it is grabbed) and cannot use the other hand as it must go across his body. You, on the other hand, have a free hand (or two, if you give up the leverage to throw a strike, as you still have an advantaged position), and two free legs. Is there a term for this other than "outside leverage"?
  5. Throw-Down - as opposed to a "take-down" where you go down with your opponent as you would see in wrestling or BJJ, this is a take-down where you stay standing or kneeling over your opponent. You can then re-stomp the groin (as in Ameri-do-te), or go for a punch to the head (which will bounce their head off the ground). It also leaves you in a standing position for the next attacker. How would you differentiate between "throw down" and "take down" as I have described?
  6. Ground-and-Pound - basically you sit on the opponent and bludgeon them with your fists. You use your legs and your body weight to remove any guard they may have and just rain blows from on high.
  7. Set-Up - the opposite of most of the above. Using strikes to get your opponent off-kilter, and then switch to grappling. The strikes could be aimed at moving their guard, dazing them for a second, or getting their eyes high before shooting low. Is there another term for this? Or does "set-up" cover it?
  8. Shocks - when you have a clinch or outside leverage and want to transition to a take-down or throw-down. Alternatively, when you have a joint isolated or are close to a submission hold and need to throw in a few blows to soften them up to finish the hold. "Shock" is the term at my school for any technique which purpose is to cause pain to allow you to proceed through to the next step of the combination. It also applies to pain compliance holds used to gain leverage. What term would you use for these strikes?
Did I miss any concepts? Did I bungle any concepts? Do you have different names for the concepts I've discussed?
Just replying to the ones I have any thoughts on. I'll try to stick to your question, but we all know I'm not any good at staying on-topic.

1-2. Those terms work as well as any.
3. I don't differentiate them by terms. My term for all of these is "destructions".
4. It's similar to the concept of "arm drag", and that's the term I've borrowed for it.
5. I call those throws, and the others takedowns. There's a huge overlap between them, and I consider one of them a subset of the other. Unfortunately, I'm inconsistent as to which is the subset of the other. Helpful, eh?
6. Pretty much everyone knows that term now, so it's what I use. I don't recall what I used to use before that term showed up - probably something like, "Hold them down and beat them until they stop fighting back."
7. "Set-up" works. I use the term "entry" to include the strikes you describe, as well as the movement and grappling manipulations that serve the same function. So, I might say, "That throw was good, but he let you have it. You didn't really have an entry to make that available."
8. I don't have a blanket term for them. They normally get lumped in with all the stuff in "entry", since they're serving that purpose. When it's a strike, I might also refer to "loosening them up". Another related concept is distracting them - so the "shock" might have the purpose of getting their attention on a wrist, when it's their head I want possession of.

Well, looking at that, I replied to everything. I'm shocked. Are you shocked?
 

Tony Dismukes

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  1. "Clearing hands" is fine. I see "trapping hands" more commonly. Either way, it's a subset of "hand fighting" and a lot of people will just use the broader term.
  2. "Clinch" is the general term. Sometimes people will refer to more specific forms of the clinch. (For example the double-collar tie or "plum" position as it is called in Muay Thai.)
  3. These are actually legal in most MMA competition, but not easy to do effectively against a skilled fighter. I've seen them included under "limb destructions", but that term can also apply to non-joint attacks such as guiding an incoming fist to the point of an elbow or striking the brachial nerve. I don't have any particular category name for that sort of technique.
  4. Common (and useful) tactic, but I don't have a general name for it. The arm drag is one good way to get to that position, but hardly the only one.
  5. For me, a takedown is any grappling technique for getting an opponent to the ground, regardless of whether I follow him there. Throws are a subset of takedowns where the opponent is lifted into the air before being slammed down. I don't have a specific term for distinguishing between takedowns where I follow the opponent down vs ones where I don't. 90% of takedowns can be done either way.
  6. Ground-and-pound is the standard term these days. If there was ever some older term from before the advent of modern MMA I haven't heard it.
  7. "Set-up" or "entry".
  8. I don't have a general term for this sort of tactic. I haven't heard "shock" before. I might lump it under "distraction."
 

TSDTexan

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There's a lot of concepts you pick up along the way, that you're not sure of the name. And sometimes that makes it hard to discuss them, especially on a forum where 99% of the content is text. Similarly, another divide is that striking and grappling are generally thought of as two separate genres (because most arts with a competitive focus disallow one or the other).

So I want your guys' help with my terminology. With each concept below, I'll put in bold my name for the concept, and you can help me out. In some cases I'll have the name right, but maybe need help with the concept.

The idea here is that all of these must combine grappling and striking techniques in some way.

  1. Clearing Hands - a concept in Wing Chun, among others. Essentially, you break down your opponents guard by literally breaking it down. Pull their hand away from their head with one hand and strike with the other.
  2. Clinch - most prolific in Muay Thai, used in wrestling (but not applicable since wrestling doesn't allow strikes). The idea is to get inside leverage on them and keep their weapons boxed out, so you can strike with your knees or with a free hand.
  3. Breaks - obviously not allowed in competition. The idea is to use grappling to set up a strike that will attack another joint. For example, a wrist-lock with one hand and a strike to the elbow with the other, or using the hands to turn someone for a side-kick to the side of their knee. Is there a term to differentiate these from breaks using leverage?
  4. Outside Leverage - common in our Taekwondo curriculum, and probably a lot of Karate curriculums as well. The goal is to grab one hand of your enemy, and use your footwork to get outside that hand. From here, your enemy cannot attack with that hand (as it is grabbed) and cannot use the other hand as it must go across his body. You, on the other hand, have a free hand (or two, if you give up the leverage to throw a strike, as you still have an advantaged position), and two free legs. Is there a term for this other than "outside leverage"?
  5. Throw-Down - as opposed to a "take-down" where you go down with your opponent as you would see in wrestling or BJJ, this is a take-down where you stay standing or kneeling over your opponent. You can then re-stomp the groin (as in Ameri-do-te), or go for a punch to the head (which will bounce their head off the ground). It also leaves you in a standing position for the next attacker. How would you differentiate between "throw down" and "take down" as I have described?
  6. Ground-and-Pound - basically you sit on the opponent and bludgeon them with your fists. You use your legs and your body weight to remove any guard they may have and just rain blows from on high.
  7. Set-Up - the opposite of most of the above. Using strikes to get your opponent off-kilter, and then switch to grappling. The strikes could be aimed at moving their guard, dazing them for a second, or getting their eyes high before shooting low. Is there another term for this? Or does "set-up" cover it?
  8. Shocks - when you have a clinch or outside leverage and want to transition to a take-down or throw-down. Alternatively, when you have a joint isolated or are close to a submission hold and need to throw in a few blows to soften them up to finish the hold. "Shock" is the term at my school for any technique which purpose is to cause pain to allow you to proceed through to the next step of the combination. It also applies to pain compliance holds used to gain leverage. What term would you use for these strikes?
Did I miss any concepts? Did I bungle any concepts? Do you have different names for the concepts I've discussed?

number 1, as Tony conveyed already is a subset of trapping. Karate has the concept of the attacker has opened a gate, by throwing a punch.

It is the paradigm that redirecting that incoming attacking hand opens the attacker for a counter. Usually it is a counter punch.

This is the philosophical root for the expression "there is no first attack, in karate".

As a self defense modality, the thiught is: we are ready at all times for the attack, to which we counter attack.

We dont want to give up our gates, by attacking first. We want to use our gates: Whether, the response is a hard block, or soft parry to trap while countering... is always determined by the context.

What type of attack, how committed or how much energy is being fed? What is his posture or structure like... is he off balance? The incoming strike... is it linear, or circular?... where am I standing in relation to the attacker? These are all aspects that determine, that context on how we will counter.

but there is a lot of training that has to build a unconscious framework. you dont have time to consider this stuff actively. Instead, it is intuitively responded to because of certain techniques being drilled over and over at certain distances.

your brain has a huge amount of subconscious patern recognition built in.

As you progress, that attacking hand can be brought into an arm bar from the trap, instead of a counter strike, or turned into a force multiplying lever for a hip toss.

It doesn't have to be a guarding hand (by the head), to be cleared. It can be an incoming punch.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Clearing Hands - ... Pull their hand away from their head with one hand and strike with the other.
You don't have to pull your opponents hand "away" from his head. You can "push" his hand into his head too. I prefer to call this "arm guiding" that you guide your opponents arm to wherever you want that arm to be.
 
OP
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You don't have to pull your opponents hand "away" from his head. You can "push" his hand into his head too. I prefer to call this "arm guiding" that you guide your opponents arm to wherever you want that arm to be.

I'm curious to see an example of this.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I'm curious to see an example of this.
Instead of trying to separate your opponents arms away from his head, sometime you may want to "jam" his arms into his head.


If you can press one of your opponents arm against his body, also press the other arm against his arm, you can disable his striking ability right at that moment.

 
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Gerry Seymour

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I'm curious to see an example of this.
There's an example or two in the Lomenchenko thread @drop bear started. In the first video, he shows the clearing (and he's scary smooth with it). In the video further down, you'll see him pushing guys' gloves into their face as he enters.
 
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Instead of trying to separate your opponents arms away from his head, sometime you may want to "jam" his arms into his head.


If you can press one of your opponents arm against his body, also press the other arm against his arm, you can disable his striking ability right at that moment.


I see what you mean, but I meant in reference to combining the strategy with striking.

There's an example or two in the Lomenchenko thread @drop bear started. In the first video, he shows the clearing (and he's scary smooth with it). In the video further down, you'll see him pushing guys' gloves into their face as he enters.

That makes a lot of sense.
 

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