TCMA, practical, or art?

[Tez3]

Tim Cartmell, a well known and respected teacher of both traditional and modern martial arts has written on this a number of times and his discussions have corrected my (incorrect and confused) thinking on the topic.

Effectiveness is not a function of what techniques a system has as much as it is a function of how those techniques are trained. Let me kind of take the Alpha and the Omega of martial arts by way of example; Brazilian Jiujitsu and Taijiquan.

I can teach taijiquan in a way that would give most people useable combat skills in a month or two. This idea that taijiquan takes decades is a bunch of horseshit. No martial art used in combat takes decades—weeks or months is more like it.

And I could take BJJ and teach it in a way that people would never get useable skills! For example if all your students do is “walk through” front and rear chokes without ever trying to sink them in—i.e. not choking the training partner till they tap—they will never be able to choke people out. The problem is, there is a sweet spot on people necks that you gotta hit and if you just pretend then you will never find the sweet spot and your BJJ is useless.

It is all in how you teach and practice the art, not in the arts corpus of techniques. I give thanks and praise to Mr. Cartmell for setting me straight on that.

Effectiveness is a function of training methods; not techniques.

Take care,
Brian

IMO this is the best post yet on this thread.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Effectiveness is a function of training methods; not techniques.

Exactly. And I would add that techniques are also less important than the principles behind them. If your body and mind are ready, techniques will flow from you.

 

[7starmantis]

Exactly. And I would add that techniques are also less important than the principles behind them. If your body and mind are ready, techniques will flow from you.

I dont know, this seems like symantics, but without techniques your principles are useless. The truth is techniques through principles. I disagree completely with the idea that if your mind is ready technqiues will just flow out of you. Unless you have trained those techniques into your body, they will not. The answer is a balance between techniques, principles, and application of both.

just my few cents,
7sm

 

[MaartenSFS]

I dont know, this seems like symantics, but without techniques your principles are useless. The truth is techniques through principles. I disagree completely with the idea that if your mind is ready technqiues will just flow out of you. Unless you have trained those techniques into your body, they will not. The answer is a balance between techniques, principles, and application of both.

just my few cents,
7sm

I digress...

If you understand the underlying theory/principles or a group of techniques, you are psychologically ready for an engagement, and your body is in the condition to carry out those techniques one of them will flow out of you instinctually (For example, you will randomly apply an unknown variation of a known technique). That is part of the reason that I said that MAists today lack creativity. I did not say that there would be no techniques, only that the principles behind them are much more important and can be applied to a broader amount of situations than the techniques themselves.

 

[jdinca]

A most excellent event should it be true. My namesake was The Doctors most challenging rival, and his reintroduction would be such a bitter sweet thing to one who thinks he is the last of his kind, only to find himself not alone any longer.

But, we digress here, and should discuss that subject in another thread I think. Let us keep this one focused on the practicality of the Chinese Arts, shall we?


Now, back to the subject at hand.

I believe that the old Chinese arts were falling into disfavor in the early parts of the 20th century due to the influence of Western nations in Chinese affairs. A resurgence in national pride led to a revival, but much was lost during the early days of the Communist Revolution. Much of it's ancient heritage was lost in stupid cultural purges. What was preserved, was often done outside the country, or in secret. I would expect that those secrets are even today being well hidden as we are not far removed from the days of tanks crushing students there.

So, much of what the tourist may find will in fact be nothing more than the tourist arts, done for money and entertainment value. I would guess that some families, still hold their arts close, and are rare to teach those they do not know well, and more rare, to teach them to non-Chinese.

Perhaps, those of this sites members who have professed extensive training in these arts would add to this discussion, and confirm or refute my theories?

Modern wushu came about as a response by the Chinese governments discovery that traditional wushu was no longer strictly a Chinese thing. They had to stay on top of the martial arts world, so in the '50s, they developed a more modern, rigorous, more gymnastic version. Most effective modern wushu practictioners don't do well past their mid 20's, just because of the demands on the body. Unfortunately, it also almost effectively eliminated wushu as a valid form of self defense.

 

[qi-tah]

I digress...

If you understand the underlying theory/principles or a group of techniques, you are psychologically ready for an engagement, and your body is in the condition to carry out those techniques one of them will flow out of you instinctually (For example, you will randomly apply an unknown variation of a known technique). That is part of the reason that I said that MAists today lack creativity. I did not say that there would be no techniques, only that the principles behind them are much more important and can be applied to a broader amount of situations than the techniques themselves.

I imagine this would depend on how you "know" those principles - intellectual understanding is of limited use in translating principle to action, physical understanding would require the use of techniques to illustrate those principles... however you aquire them. Techniques come from all sources; luck, experience, training etc. Is this what you talk about when you mention creativity?

 

[MaartenSFS]

I imagine this would depend on how you "know" those principles - intellectual understanding is of limited use in translating principle to action, physical understanding would require the use of techniques to illustrate those principles... however you aquire them. Techniques come from all sources; luck, experience, training etc. Is this what you talk about when you mention creativity?

Yes. It takes a creative martial mind to know when they've found a good new technique worth practising and using, not at all different from a pianist "knowing" that his latest piece is "gold". Because if a technique fails you when you most need it...

 

[qi-tah]

Yes. It takes a creative martial mind to know when they've found a good new technique worth practising and using, not at all different from a pianist "knowing" that his latest piece is "gold". Because if a technique fails you when you most need it...

But on the flip side, a lot of creativity is trial and error... often a lot of error! Which isn't really practical. The results might be practical, but that isn't the art - that's just what us (the royal we) poor gumbys practice now. So perhaps the question should have been posited; "TCMA, neither practical nor art??" Oh dear...

Joke, ok?? (I have an odd sense of humour)

 

[MaartenSFS]

But on the flip side, a lot of creativity is trial and error... often a lot of error! Which isn't really practical. The results might be practical, but that isn't the art - that's just what us (the royal we) poor gumbys practice now. So perhaps the question should have been posited; "TCMA, neither practical nor art??" Oh dear...

Joke, ok?? (I have an odd sense of humour)

As long as the trial and error testing isn't occuring during an actual combat situation then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[7starmantis]

As long as the trial and error testing isn't occuring during an actual combat situation then it shouldn't be a problem.

Which is why we beat each other up all the time, right?

 

[MaartenSFS]

Which is why we beat each other up all the time, right?

That's our excuse, anyways.