Takedown vs Throw

Jared Traveler

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In simple terms, I believe the difference between a takedown vs a throw is airtime and/or ballistic force.

Takedowns work great to "take the fight to the ground" but to really do damage and use the earth as a weapon, you have to learn throws.

I don't think this is revolutionary insite, but I think a lot of people still don't think about the differences.

Also this is where crash pads become very important. Without them students can learn bad behavior as they try to take the sting out of the fall when throwing other students, buy soft balling the throw.

Originally when I took Hapkido we learned to pull up on the gi once the person we were throwing landed. The problem is I did this in a live event "training scars" when I throw a suspect who had just tried to hit me.

Then when I began taking judo we used crash pads. So we could learn to throw at full force.
 

wab25

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Originally when I took Hapkido we learned to pull up on the gi once the person we were throwing landed. The problem is I did this in a live event "training scars" when I throw a suspect who had just tried to hit me.
Not sure I understand what the problem is here? Throwing full force and pulling up on the arm are two separate things. The fact that you could maintain control of the arm and pull up on it, with no gi, in a live event is a good thing, I would think.
 

Holmejr

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Agreed.
For sure in a law enforcement situation if a perp is going to fight back, go for your weopon, etc. all bets are of until compliance. I am not law enforcement. In FMA (combat judo) we try hard NOT to go down with the opponent as we assume there is a weapon involved. Ive been in a one situations were a clothesline takedown with control of arm was all that was need to stop the altercation. The other was a hammer lock type take down with the same results. Landings were hard enough but not heavy injury hard. If one can control the arm after throw or takedown it can only be a benefit.
 
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drop bear

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In MMA there is a tendency to avoid ballistic throws because of the effort required to pull one off. And that is weighed up whether it is worth it. When you can generally sit on them and punch them after.

People definitely still do it. But there is an argument against it.

I have done Ballistic throws on the street and dropped guys on rheir head and spent a few tense seconds wondering if I had killed them or not. Which for me is generally a not the result I am trying to achieve.

If there is a weapon involved. I want to go down with the guy to (situational) so I can use the advantage of gravity to disarm him. Or beat on him more efficiently.
 

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In simple terms, I believe the difference between a takedown vs a throw is airtime and/or ballistic force.

Takedowns work great to "take the fight to the ground" but to really do damage and use the earth as a weapon, you have to learn throws.

I don't think this is revolutionary insite, but I think a lot of people still don't think about the differences.

Also this is where crash pads become very important. Without them students can learn bad behavior as they try to take the sting out of the fall when throwing other students, buy soft balling the throw.

Originally when I took Hapkido we learned to pull up on the gi once the person we were throwing landed. The problem is I did this in a live event "training scars" when I throw a suspect who had just tried to hit me.

Then when I began taking judo we used crash pads. So we could learn to throw at full force.
Can you define the difference between these terms, as you're using them here?

I ask because the way I normally use them doesn't fit this post (takedown = you go down with them, throw = they fall from standing or higher - the terms can overlap).
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Can you define the difference between these terms, as you're using them here?

I ask because the way I normally use them doesn't fit this post (takedown = you go down with them, throw = they fall from standing or higher - the terms can overlap).
Will you call this throw, or take down?

 

Oily Dragon

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In MMA there is a tendency to avoid ballistic throws because of the effort required to pull one off. And that is weighed up whether it is worth it. When you can generally sit on them and punch them after.

People definitely still do it. But there is an argument against it.

I have done Ballistic throws on the street and dropped guys on rheir head and spent a few tense seconds wondering if I had killed them or not. Which for me is generally a not the result I am trying to achieve.

If there is a weapon involved. I want to go down with the guy to (situational) so I can use the advantage of gravity to disarm him. Or beat on him more efficiently.
Judo isn't easy.

If it was everyone would do it :D
 
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Jared Traveler

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Will you call this throw, or take down?

I would call that a takedown. I'm not vested in the terms, I'm more interested in distinguishing the difference in application. A takedown (or we might say, the act of simply tripping, pushing or moving someone to the ground) verse a throw (taking them down with a lot of force, typically involving air time, where both feet leave the ground, dropping from a height, usually with dynamic speed and power applied, sometimes but not always landing on top of them after the impact).
 

drop bear

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As a side note. I have tried ballistic throws while trying to takedown a guy as a team. And it generally doesn't work because the other guys are holding him down.

The rugby method is the best thought out. Where one guy stops his momentum and the other binds his legs.

 
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Jared Traveler

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Why are we discussing the difference in application?

My personal takedown theory is I try about 10 different throws one after the other until something works. And some may be ballistic and some may not.
Fair point, sometimes you never end up good at applying the throws you want to be good at. Sometimes they seem to chose you. With that said, for me personally Uchi Mata was my dojo go to throw. But on the street I very often used a close line version of Osoto Otoshi(something I could never pull off in competition).
 

drop bear

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Fair point, sometimes you never end up good at applying the throws you want to be good at. Sometimes they seem to chose you. With that said, for me personally Uchi Mata was my dojo go to throw. But on the street I very often used a close line version of Osoto Otoshi(something I could never pull off in competition).

That is because people in competition can fight.

Duck under head arm triangle for me.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Benny's mom was a wrestler and he started learning throws when he was 5.

Born for it.
It takes time to develop a good throw. May be UFC guys prefer to spent time to develop something else instead of to develop a good throw.

I have a feeling that MMA may hurt the throwing art in the long run. Why should one train throw if he can just drag his opponent down and then apply his ground game?
 

Oily Dragon

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Why don't we see throw like this in UFC that a throw can knock opponent out?

May be UFC guys no longer train throw like this.
The happen occasionally but I think pure BJJ and Judo have disadvantages in MMA unless they are trained in a true MMA environment.
 

Oily Dragon

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It takes time to develop a good throw. May be UFC guys prefer to spent time to develop something else instead of to develop a good throw.

I have a feeling that MMA may hurt the throwing art in the long run. Why should one train throw if he can just drag his opponent down and then apply his ground game?
Can't remember where but I once saw an attempt at ippon seionage turn into an monkey take the back roll and immediate RNC.

It's just something people watch out for in MMA, you're better off sweeping IMHO
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The happen occasionally but I think pure BJJ and Judo have disadvantages in MMA unless they are trained in a true MMA environment.
The only difference between MMA and kickboxing, or Sanda is the ground game. If a kickboxer (such as Benny Urquidez) can use a throw to knock out his opponent, the MMA guys should be able to do the same.
 
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