Taijiquan and Knee Issues?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well another person appears to be moving on. A friend of mine a long time Taijiquan practitioner appears to be moving away from her art due severe pain in her knees when practicing. Her instructor could not help her or would not help her try to fix the problem. (ie. system issues) So she is moving on. This has happened to alot of Taijiquan practitioner's that I know. Anyone else experienced this or know someone leaving because of knee issues and reluctancy of the system to allow them to change?

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, I have definitely heard of this. In traditional Chen style especially, knee problems are certainly known. Some Chen dirivatives have made some modifications in recognition of this issue. Even in traditional Chen it should not be a problem if you are doing things right, but it's pretty easy to be just a bit off, and for some people that is all it takes.

 

[grydth]

That is very discouraging news, especially as Tai Chi has long had an image of helping so many people, and of being welcoming to the disabled.

In a very early class with my first instructor, a person with a serious leg injury stated, " I can't do that move... sorry, but with this knee I just can't move that way." The instructor went over and asked," Well, what can you do?" The person proceeded to move to their ability. " Do that.", the sifu said, and went on with the class.

I have had 2 instructors since, and each subscribed to that practice. I had seen disabled people, one a 4th dan, shown the door in Japanese arts due to "system issues"..... but never before in Tai Chi.

Now, can Tai Chi cause disability? I believe it can. Our first instructor taught that we should never do one of the transitional postures in he Cheng Man Ching form as it had the potential to blow out the knee. He suggested another way. (I later began to do the form with amendments based on the theories and suggestions of one of his students, Dr Chi Chiang-tao, which restores some postures and eliminates this transition). I have also been taught that exagerrated leaning, with the knee over and out beyond the foot has damage potential. Finally, there is always risk associated when one practices this as a martial art... same injury potential as any other self defense class.

Just my personal opinion, but this is a discouraging situation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well my friend has been doing Taijiquan Wu Style for years. (Probably around ten or more) She is doing the move correctly that bothers it but invariably her knee hurts during and afterwards.

Unfortunately her instructor does not seem to be allowing experimentation to alleviate the knee pain.

Hence why she is moving on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well another person appears to be moving on. A friend of mine a long time Taijiquan practitioner appears to be moving away from her art due severe pain in her knees when practicing. Her instructor could not help her or would not help her try to fix the problem. (ie. system issues) So she is moving on. This has happened to alot of Taijiquan practitioner's that I know. Anyone else experienced this or know someone leaving because of knee issues and reluctancy of the system to allow them to change?

There is going lower and going lower properly and the instructor should be able to spot someone that is doing the postures improperly, or for that matter moving from posture to posture improperly and correct them.

I have not yet heard of one person leaving my current sifu's class for knee injury. However there were people that left my first sifu's classes due to knee issues. Difference is are how and what they learned and how they teach.

My first sifu for all intensive purposes learned the majority of his forms form a Wushu University in Shandong. My Second Sifu learned Taiji form a Taiji master. My first sifu would be considered a gym teacher in China my second sifu would be considered a martial artist, a tajiquan teacher and an old school TCM guy.

But with all that said there is another big difference that could also be part of the reason. My first sifu has hundreds of students and my second has less than 20.

As to Chen, I can see it being more prone to knee problems but if I watch Chen Zhenglei do the forms I do not see any posture other than, I believe, Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui) that could very easily cause a knee problem. But I no longer train Chen and only ever knew Old Laojia Yilu (aka Shandong Province old style Chen) and new Laojia Yilu and Chen Zhenglei's 18. And the only one I do at all anymore is CHen Zhenglei's 18.

But I would not doubt that many of the knee problems in Chen come from the lower postures and being just slightly off. Yang can go low but Chen goes lower.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well my friend has been doing Taijiquan Wu Style for years. (Probably around ten or more) She is doing the move correctly that bothers it but invariably her knee hurts during and afterwards.

Unfortunately her instructor does not seem to be allowing experimentation to alleviate the knee pain.

Hence why she is moving on.

Wu/Hao or Wu?

If Wu meaning Northern Wu or from the Wu family that is now in Canada then I am not surprised. Wu has a few very front weighted stances that put a lot of stress on the knee.

If Wu/Hao then I am more surprised.

EDIT:

Interestingly my first Sifu also taught Wu family forms along with Chen, Yang and Sun.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Wu/Hao or Wu?

If Wu meaning Northern Wu or from the Wu family that is now in Canada then I am not surprised. Wu has a few very front weighted stances that put a lot of stress on the knee.

If Wu/Hao then I am more surprised.

Hey Xue Sheng it is Wu from the Wu Family!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey Xue Sheng it is Wu from the Wu Family!

That can hurt if done slightly wrong

 

[pete]

tai chi chuan, regardless of family style or lineage, is supposed to enable balance. now, if a student has a pre-existing injury, or starts to develop a new one, the teacher should be knowledgeable enough to correct mis-aligned posture and/or modify the form to suit the student WHILE still maintaining the essential nature of that posture. if the teacher cannot, he should at least be honest and humble enough to discuss this with the student and either (a) get input from his teacher, or (b) refer the student to a more experienced teacher.

Problem is many teachers refuse to let go of their own ego, and cling to their own limitations, thereby forcing an otherwise good student away from the art...

Conceptually, its simple. Tai Chi is based on balance. Say a student has a weakness in their right knee. Many would react by over-compensating from the stronger left side. This is incorrect, as there will not be balance, the right knee will not improve since it is being 'carried along', and in time the left side will weaken through over-use.

Instead, by limiting the range of motion to that of the weaker part (the right knee in my example), the body remains in balance, and without risk of further injury the weaker part will gradually gain strength. This concept, consistent with universal tai chi principles, should be applied any range of motion activity.

pete

 

[Taijiman]

I've been having problems. Turns out I have a degenerative condition in my knees from getting older (kind of sad since I'm only 28, lol). But physical therapy should help make things much better. Has your friend seen an orthopedics doctor to see what the problem was?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I've been having problems. Turns out I have a degenerative condition in my knees from getting older (kind of sad since I'm only 28, lol). But physical therapy should help make things much better. Has your friend seen an orthopedics doctor to see what the problem was?

You know I believe she has but I do not know what her physician told her.

 

[kaizasosei]

That's why there's chigung-yoga-pilates.etc.
But what are the possible reasons for practicing taichichuan??


j

 

[kaizasosei]

as far as i understood it, there is a strong way and a weak way to do taichi. this can be reversed for different sexes or age groups.
anybody that has understood the exact way how to go about this, will not/cannot give up that information so easily. and even they can only be proven by their results.

j

 

[scarney]

Interesting to me is the fact that my knees were healed by doing Tai Chi. However, I do know how people can push themselves too hard in Tai Chi. I always tell my students that sore muscles are ok. Sore joints are not. If something hurts the joints then back off!

Sean Carney
http://www.SoftAnswerTaiChi.com

 

[ggg214]

i have also experienced the hurt to my knees.
but now with right practition, it's no more a problem, even though my left knee haven't recovered from a damage caused in a football match.
i think the way out of this thing is follow right instructions.

 

[Taijiman]

Taiji Quan helped my knees. Of course, if your knees are previously hurt, doing a posture in such a manner that would damage the knees is going to be noticed right away. Someone with healthy knees isn't going to notice as quickly. While a friend of mine might be able to have his knee go past his toes or make his leg a bit crooked in a gongbu with minimal discomfort, for me it's going to be rather painful the first time I do this ;-)

 

[kempocat]

I backed away from Taijiquan due to knee issues
martial arts is not like breathing you dont have to do it so for me it wasnt worth the risk

 

[kaizasosei]

noone is forcing you to breath. it's just better for your health.

j

 

[pete]

I backed away from Taijiquan due to knee issues
martial arts is not like breathing you dont have to do it so for me it wasnt worth the risk

the only risk is with the quality of the teacher, and your ability to listen

 

[TaiChiTJ]

One consideration is the type of footwear. If you are having problems, try stepping through a set not wearing shoes. Use that as a baseline. Work from there to figure out what is best for you.