Systema a discussion

[Gweilo]

So you had a couple of fights and ejected drunk teenagers from clubs, lets talk about your fights,
Liscensed, unliscensed, school playground, which, maybe a karate tournament?

 

[Headhunter]

So you had a couple of fights and ejected drunk teenagers from clubs, lets talk about your fights,
Liscensed, unliscensed, school playground, which, maybe a karate tournament?

No I’m good I’ve got nothing to prove to you or anyone. Any fight I’ve been in has been and gone and Certainly not things I consider accomplishments and want to brag about I could talk about them but it’d be a waste of time for all involved. I know this is just you trying to one up me but I’m not getting drawn into those silly games just because you disagree with my opinion which I stand by and do not apologise for.

 

[Gweilo]

Not at all, I value your opinion, (your a grumpy git sometimes) but your experience is of value, no one upmanship, you are one of the only people to try systema, so I do value your imput, even ifcwe do not agree

 

[Gweilo]

When I write things, not everyone agrees, but I am here to learn, even if sometimes I sound very confident, stupid or something else.

 

[Headhunter]

Not at all, I value your opinion, (your a grumpy git sometimes) but your experience is of value, no one upmanship, you are one of the only people to try systema, so I do value your imput, even ifcwe do not agree

Well Fair enough I’m happy to discuss opinions but I have no interest in discussing fights from years ago. Fights are nothing to be proud of in my eyes and then it just ends up not looking good and then you’ll get some clown coming in saying I’m lying (not saying that’s you but I’m sure someone will) so needs it.

 

[Gweilo]

No I’m good

Really lol

 

[Gweilo]

Well Fair enough I’m happy to discuss opinions but I have no interest in discussing fights from years ago. Fights are nothing to be proud of in my eyes and then it just ends up not looking good and then you’ll get some clown coming in saying I’m lying (not saying that’s you but I’m sure someone will) so needs it.

I am a advocate of, if you stop learning, its time to call it a day

 

[Gweilo]

Going back to your experience, is there anything, you come away with, could of moved better, could of had better conditioning, didnt drop that right hand in again?

 

[drop bear]

I agree footwork is paramount, but what about controlling your opponents footwork, whilst having your footwork, ,in time with your opponents, his left touches down, your left touches down, with biomechanics, or the understanding of, do you not agree, if you are in time with your opponent, reading them is easier

No. I don't think it matters that much.

Rather than say. I cut an angle. He then only has a few options in which to attack me. As he turns to face me. I can, if I am slick, cut another angle. Cutting off his options again.

As far as timing goes. That angle cut then breaks the rhythm where I go, then he goes. And I get to go more often. Giving me a higher scoring shots. Which gives me a higher of finishing the fight.

 

[Gweilo]

This I find interesting, so for arguments sake, how do you cut the angle, if I am soley countering you? Or reacting to your movement

 

[Gweilo]

On a secondry note, cutting the angles, this sounds like ring craft, which is greatbin a ring, or perhaps a confined area.
I take it you are referring to the footwork of muay thai etc.

 

[Gweilo]

Sorry, really busy, so got to fit this in now, as might not be able to come on later.
Cutting the angle, as stated I am a counter attacker, so wont be coming forward, until my movement brings me in range after avoiding your attack, So this leaves you with 2 options, the disguised angle cut, where you hide your foot movement behind a jab or feint for example, only problem is, I wont be wearing gloves, so this leaves you at risk when you transfer mass to the lead leg being seen, and attacked, or your other angle cutting option is not common (and for good reason), were you move by effectively jumping, where both feet leave the floor, boxers use it more than muay thai or mma, for obvious reasons, once again, I am a counter attacker who is continually moving, I dont mind making you miss until you are gassed, then countering a sloppy tired attack, or if an opportunity arises, I will take it, will have to finish another time as a delivery wagon has arrived.

 

[drop bear]

This I find interesting, so for arguments sake, how do you cut the angle, if I am soley countering you? Or reacting to your movement

You can counter a slick counter fighter by pouring on the pressure and staying super tight. You basically keep cutting off their angles of escape and forcing them to keep doing bigger and more desperate movements.

And hopefully they run in to something.

 

[drop bear]

On a secondry note, cutting the angles, this sounds like ring craft, which is greatbin a ring, or perhaps a confined area.
I take it you are referring to the footwork of muay thai etc.

Ring craft is great everywhere. It is especially great against multiple oponants because the whole plan of fighting multiples is to cut off their movement and create angles.

If you can't fight and step off line you will just get flanked. And then most likely bashed.

There is plenty of vital skills learned in ring craft that translates to street craft.

Even super basic concepts like making sure you keep your hips underneath you rather than over wide stepping. Helps you on slippery surfaces.

Or knowing where the edge of your fighting environment is and either being able to get out easily. Or back up and use it as protection.

Trust me being able to move 3 dimensionally while engaged in a fight is one of the most useful things you can know.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry, really busy, so got to fit this in now, as might not be able to come on later.
Cutting the angle, as stated I am a counter attacker, so wont be coming forward, until my movement brings me in range after avoiding your attack, So this leaves you with 2 options, the disguised angle cut, where you hide your foot movement behind a jab or feint for example, only problem is, I wont be wearing gloves, so this leaves you at risk when you transfer mass to the lead leg being seen, and attacked, or your other angle cutting option is not common (and for good reason), were you move by effectively jumping, where both feet leave the floor, boxers use it more than muay thai or mma, for obvious reasons, once again, I am a counter attacker who is continually moving, I dont mind making you miss until you are gassed, then countering a sloppy tired attack, or if an opportunity arises, I will take it, will have to finish another time as a delivery wagon has arrived.

There are pressure fighters who beat counter fighters. There is no one magical option. Nobody is a counter fighter and therefore indestructible.

I have been tooled up by both. And have played both games. Ironically one of my coaches is a pressure fighter, one is a counter fighter. It is more to do with body shape.



And why won't you be wearing gloves?

Actually there is a third option. We can both stand there like dummies waiting for the other guy to move in a giant boring waste of time.

 

[Gweilo]

This is why our opinions differ, you talk about sports fighting, the nearest I came to that was in my early 20's, when I had 8 unliscensed fights, which If memory serves, the most I got paid was about £300, the rest of my experience was brawling on nights out, this is why I talk about not having gloves, in our systema group, we spar without gloves as well, sounds dramatic, but we prefer and train to strike softer areas like muscle, although there are regular fat lips and black eyes.
The ring craft comment you made,

There are pressure fighters who beat counter fighters

Yes there is, but you forget where your techniques come from, other arts, with agressive posture and movement, tension betrays most fighters, and spotting tension is one of the skills learnt in systema, we are students of movement.

 

[Gweilo]

Plenty, in both the ring (point karate, boxing, kickboxing/Muay Thai and MMA) and working as a doorman both in restraining people and witnessing fights and working as a security guard at fight shows having to deal with drunks getting in crowd fights and never have I worried about biometrics and matching footwork and neither has anyone else in any fight because simply as I already stated when the fists are flying you haven’t got time to think about all that. It sounds good in theory though

No disrespect, its a hard job, but you are dealing with people who are not in top form, unpredictable, to a degree, but not in the best catagory of an opponent, not belittling you, but your adversaries are not sober fitness nuts with regular fight experience. My view is bias, as in my day, bouncers were sober gym guys, who beat up drunk teenagers usually in pairs, having said that you still need your whits about you, are they tooled up etc.it sounds good in theory was your comment, but have you ever taken that extra 1/2 or full second to observe? My guess is no, the trigger of a scuffle in a club switches you into bouncer mode, the adrenaline pumps, and you react, like DB, you go into agression mode, its how I used to react, the so say red mist, before you know it, someone has gone through a plate glass window, or tumbled down 2 flights of stairs, or laying in a pool of their own piss, there is another way.

 

[Gweilo]

There are pressure fighters who beat counter fighters. There is no one magical option. Nobody is a counter fighter and therefore indestructible.

I have been tooled up by both. And have played both games. Ironically one of my coaches is a pressure fighter, one is a counter fighter. It is more to do with body shape.



And why won't you be wearing gloves?

Actually there is a third option. We can both stand there like dummies waiting for the other guy to move in a giant boring waste of time.

To ge honest with you, an mma trained guy would be the last opponent I would want to face, why, because I know you guys are fit, strong and skilled, but what you need to know is, there is always someone just as good, or better around the corner, no two opponents are the same.

Your mma is evolving as we speak, sorry to disappoint, but we are training in trends, and soon, we will both be training in an old regime, relics of a bygone age, take whats useful, disguard the rest, was advice given sometime ago.

 

[Gweilo]

Unfortunately this young man met his match

 

[Headhunter]

To ge honest with you, an mma trained guy would be the last opponent I would want to face, why, because I know you guys are fit, strong and skilled, but what you need to know is, there is always someone just as good, or better around the corner, no two opponents are the same.

Your mma is evolving as we speak, sorry to disappoint, but we are training in trends, and soon, we will both be training in an old regime, relics of a bygone age, take whats useful, disguard the rest, was advice given sometime ago.

You really think they don’t know that? Every fighter knows they can be beaten as there’s very very few are undefeated.

as for evolving....well frankly MMA is much more likely to evolve than most traditional styles. I’m no MMA fanboy I’ll say this. You take your average MMA guy or boxer or Muay Thai fighter and put him against your average systema guy, the MMA/boxer/ Muay Thai will win for the majority. Of course there will be exceptions but that’s my take