A 'done right' plan would have begun by keeping promises to the American people.
Supreme Court starts to hear "Obama Care" law today
- Thread starter punisher73
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A 'done right' plan would have begun by keeping promises to the American people.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
That's still a non answer. As I said before, done right means something to each person.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08uk99L8oqQ&feature=related
That's why we're having this problem now.
During all the pre-passage debate, many U.S. lawmakers were unable to answer the simple question, “Where specifically in the Constitution does Congress get its authority to mandate that individuals purchase health insurance?” They mocked people who suggested it might not be. Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, when asked the constitutionality question, said he “assumed” the commerce clause would make it all legal, but noted that he wasn’t a constitutional scholar. Just, you know, a guy who makes laws. The divide was party line. The GOP said "this is unconstitutional" the Dems said "we won't now that until we pass it."
Maybe the Dems should have stayed in the chamber when the GOP read the Constitution into the record. It would have been the first time many of them saw it I suspect.
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Are you kidding? Then what would he have to campaign about? He'll have something to say "Lookit the good that I've done! Killed Bin Laden and passed this great new law that will save millions of tax dollars, vote for me again will ya?"
As poor as I am, if they somehow do pass this law, then I guess I'm a criminal in their eyes. There's no way I can afford even the most marginal costs of health insurance. Even if I get another minimum wage job, I still wouldn't be able to afford it. Gas prices are rising, food, rent, all of that... nope. Sorry.
I've been lucky not to have any major or even minor health problems, other than an occasional sniffle now and again.
You'll only be a criminal if you don't pay your fine. See, it's not illegal to not have health insurance.
Just illegal to not pay the fine.
BUT! If you can scrape up the cash to pay the $500-900 per month premium, every month, you won't have to pay the fine....which starts at $95 the first year.
AND! You can apply for a "credit" when you file your taxes.
Now that sounds stupid to me. But I'm not an exempt from the law Congressman making $150,000 + benis a year, so what would I know.
Just illegal to not pay the fine.
BUT! If you can scrape up the cash to pay the $500-900 per month premium, every month, you won't have to pay the fine....which starts at $95 the first year.
AND! You can apply for a "credit" when you file your taxes.
Now that sounds stupid to me. But I'm not an exempt from the law Congressman making $150,000 + benis a year, so what would I know.
Three parts to that
!? Really? Really?
Do you mean the over 2000 page bill that was passed into law without being read in full by ANYONE? The one which campaign donors and other Obama supporters are routinely exempted from? You're damn right the motivation is to kill the bill! A better motivation, IMHO, would be to vote out every single POS Politician that voted for it and the President that signed it...
Because forcing people to buy private insurance takes control away from private insurance companies?!
I think my answer is very clear. Before doing anything else, before making any decisions, the President should have kept the promise he made multiple times and made it an open, transparent, public debate. The debate he promised. No matter what direction the final bill would have taken, it would have reflected the will of the people instead of the will of the President, and it would have had no hidden gotchas, no huge segments of law no one was even allowed to read, and at the very least, we'd know exactly what we were getting ourselves into.
That would be 'done right'. Even if I had disagreed with the final result.
Instead, what we got was lies. Lies, lies, and more lies, from our President. Big fat turds spewing right out of his mouth.
Non answer? The President is a lying SOB. There's your answer. If he had kept his word, we could have at least tried to do this healthcare reform right. We might have failed, but instead we were doomed from the start, we didn't even have a chance to do it right.
Anybody who can stand up and pretend the President didn't lie about this; I don't understand. They're either stupid or have their heads so far up the Democratic donkey's *** that they don't know what truth looks like anymore. Anybody who can stand up and say that this was a good idea? Same thing.
You want an answer? There's your answer.
No Mattocks, don't be shy, tell us what you really think.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Come on, bill. The president? Just him? You're smarter than that.
Obama -could- have vetoed it. There was no hurry, half the bill still isn't in effect for 2 more years. Another 2-3 months wouldn't have hurt at all.
And there weren't enough votes to override the veto.
He could have insisted that -as he promised- the bill would be available for public review prior to the vote.
He could have called Pelosi on her BS "need to pass it first" comment.
He could have insisted that a fully Constitutional bill be presented, especially given his resume bit of being an expert on the Constitution.
He could have insisted on a more balanced bill that brought both parties together, rather than his "Hey, who won, yeah I did now suck it losers" approach.
But.
He didn't.
He isn't the -only- person to blame.
But he could have played a better part in preventing this mess in the first place.
Good intentions, but poor understanding of the legalities.
And there weren't enough votes to override the veto.
He could have insisted that -as he promised- the bill would be available for public review prior to the vote.
He could have called Pelosi on her BS "need to pass it first" comment.
He could have insisted that a fully Constitutional bill be presented, especially given his resume bit of being an expert on the Constitution.
He could have insisted on a more balanced bill that brought both parties together, rather than his "Hey, who won, yeah I did now suck it losers" approach.
But.
He didn't.
He isn't the -only- person to blame.
But he could have played a better part in preventing this mess in the first place.
Good intentions, but poor understanding of the legalities.
Then there was this 'nugget' from Speaker Pelosi
Current impression seems to be that the mandate is history, but most of the bill will survive.
Also, like Congress, the Court doesn't feel like reading the full 2,700 pages.
It's not that much....any 14 year old did that in a few days....just retitle it "Harry Potter and the Incomprehensionable Bollocks".
Current impression seems to be that the mandate is history, but most of the bill will survive.
Also, like Congress, the Court doesn't feel like reading the full 2,700 pages.
It's not that much....any 14 year old did that in a few days....just retitle it "Harry Potter and the Incomprehensionable Bollocks".
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Man, I guess I don't see it the same way. While he could certainly have vetoed it, as is often the case, Congress puts together the bill and it becomes an interesting dilemma for the President. It's the pork that often sneaks into the bill or the concessions that have been made along the way. The question is never whether the bill is perfect. It will never be. Too many stakeholders. Too many contrary interests. Too much pork. The question is whether the bill is... good enough. Does it meet at least some of the key goals or in some way retain the spirit of the original idea.
And my intention isn't to debate the Health Care Reform Act. I think that there are big problems within the bill.
I have two points. First, that "done right" is entirely subjective and given 20 people you will get twenty different opinions, and it's entirely possible that all 20 of those opinions have merit.
Second, that this was a group effort. And while there are people who had more influence over it than others, each member of both houses of Congress are, in my opinion, far more responsible for legislation than the President. Blaming the President is a cop out. This turd is, IMO, an almost perfect example of Congressional dysfunction. It's the perfect storm of money, blame, partisanship and acrimony mixed together in the media with liberal doses of greed.
There are other influencers at work, including us (the people), the media and historical precedent. But ultimately, in the hierarchy of influence it is clear that there is Congress and then, below that, there is the President. They draft the bill. They debate the bill. They vote on the bill. They present the bill. And while the president can cajole, coerce and convince, ultimately, he gets what he gets and that's it. And I'd be willing to bet a steak dinner that what he gets resembles what he wanted in no significant way.
And I honestly can't believe that you guys would suggest otherwise. While I can expect this sort of simplistic partisan criticism of Obama from blatant jersey wearers like billcihak, I'm frankly a little surprised to see it come from both of you, Bob and Bill. While we don't always agree, I have come to expect that you both tend to be fair.
The thing is Steve, I am being fair. I'm holding Obama to his own words, his promises, an job as a leader.
He failed on those.
Yes, it was the responsibility of the Congress to present him a solid bill, but he was an active participant in this, meeting with many, pushing for inclusion of HIS wants.
I don't blame him.
I blame all of them.
He failed on those.
Yes, it was the responsibility of the Congress to present him a solid bill, but he was an active participant in this, meeting with many, pushing for inclusion of HIS wants.
I don't blame him.
I blame all of them.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This is not what I've seen so far in this thread. So far, it's been the same old partisan claptrap. Even calling it Obamacare is letting Congress off the hook somewhat.
You posted a series of indictments against the President in this thread and the only acknowledgement you give to any others who are at all culpable is a Milquetoast "yeah, but" statement at the end of your diatribe.
And you guys have yet to acknowledge that both of your "done right" statements are 100%, grade A bluster grounded in a fantasy world where politics are clean and neat, goals and motivations are universal and transparent, and everyone at a table negotiates in good faith. Please. Done right.
Let's be real. "Done right" in politics often translates directly to "done at all."
Who made the promise? Who broke it? The President.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Who made which promise? Promises were made all aroundon both sides of the aisle.
Who broke the presidents promise ? I'd say congress, obviously. Thats the point.
Who writes legislation? Who votes on it? Whose job is it?
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This one. As I've already stated.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...17/health-care-reform-public-sessions-C-SPAN/
Congress forced the President to not discuss health care reform in public? They can issue gag orders now?
"Obama promised repeatedly an end to closed-door negotiations and complete openness for the health care talks. But he hasn't delivered. Instead of open talks of C-SPAN, we've gotten more of the same talks behind closed doors at the White House and Congress. We might revisit this promise if there's a dramatic change, but we see nothing to indicate anything has changed. We rate this Promise Broken."
That's not what you asked. You asked for a definition of 'done it right'. I gave you one; the President could have kept his promise. Not Congress' promise, his promise. That might not have resulted in a health care bill I'd have liked either, but it would have been 'done right'. You asked, I answered. Changing the subject now isn't going to work.
dancingalone
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Steve,
You don't think Mr. Obama bears some responsibility for this disaster of a law along with the nasty un-open, quid pro quo sausage-making process that was used to write it? He was in close consultations with Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid the whole time.
Don't you think it's rather convenient that the unions which lined up behind Mr. Obama comprise a big part of the list of exempted organizations from ObamaCare?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Bill, I've made two consistent points. I'm not trying to change teh subject. Once again, if you don't see that your definition of "done right" is unique to you, I can't make that point any more clear.
Regarding Obama, if you want to place all the blame in his lap, I won't stop you. I'm just surprised that this simplistic, partisan position is coming from you and Bob.
Of course I think he's a part of it. I have said as much in my posts and have not suggested otherwise. What I do believe is that where legislation is concerned, the President has very little direct control over what ends up on his desk next to the ceremonial pen. And so, to give Congress a pass on a product they have created is simplistic.
And as I've said, even calling it Obamacare is a nod to partisanship and absolves the members of Congress of their part in the process, both Democrat and Republican.
The same is true for all legislation. Another good example is the Patriot Act, a deplorable piece of flawed legislation. While Bush 43 certainly bears some of the responsibility, the lion's share falls, in my opinion, squarely on Congress. They drafted the bloody bill and passed it through both the House and the Senate.
Bob Hubbard said, "I don't blame him. I blame all of them." I agree with this, but as I said before, it rings hollow in light of the lambasting of Obama that immediately precedes it.
You guys. I'm not saying anything radical here. In fact, I would bet I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said by you guys yourselves in other threads on other bills.
Steve, The President, be he Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc, gets all the flack. It's the price they pay for sitting in that seat.
I've tried to clarify why I place some of the blame on his lap.
I'd be here all night if I went idiot by idiot identifying blame.
So the lumps get lumped together and I just say Congress.
I posted the following on Facebook, it sums things up for me.
====
The current hot issue of the Supreme Court debating Obamacare is on a lot of peoples minds, mine included. I've made no secret that I support the idea of "Repeal and Replace", and have put forth a few ideas on what would have been better.
Regardless of the decisions made, it's almost a guarantee that they will be a 5:4 split, which will be on party lines. A shame, and that does make the USSC look as biased as the Congress that passed the law.
My issue has been with the mandate. Much of what else is in that bill helps people, people who need and deserve help. I disagree that most of this should come from the Federal government, but maybe it is time to grow things. I don't know.
I'm a firm supporter of States Rights, even when that position keeps me from seeing a "win" on other important to me issues. I don't believe in 'flip flop as convenient' politics. Too much of that in office as it is I think.
But America needs an health care over haul.
I think Congress owes it to us to go back to work, and fix this, so that it is solidly Constitutional, provides people with the care and coverage they need, at rates that are fair to everyone, patients, doctors, hospitals and drug companies.
If I have 1 flaw, it's a desire for fairness. I'll take little pleasure in an over turning, and little in a vindication of the law.
What I want is a legal solution, that respects us all.
So while I promise I will be mocking all sides, because I find some of the cartoons amusing, don't think I find people hurting and suffering at all funny. They are the ones that all this unnecessary crap is really hurting, and who our Congress let down when they failed to produce something that was legal and functional from the start.
I've tried to clarify why I place some of the blame on his lap.
I'd be here all night if I went idiot by idiot identifying blame.
So the lumps get lumped together and I just say Congress.
I posted the following on Facebook, it sums things up for me.
====
The current hot issue of the Supreme Court debating Obamacare is on a lot of peoples minds, mine included. I've made no secret that I support the idea of "Repeal and Replace", and have put forth a few ideas on what would have been better.
Regardless of the decisions made, it's almost a guarantee that they will be a 5:4 split, which will be on party lines. A shame, and that does make the USSC look as biased as the Congress that passed the law.
My issue has been with the mandate. Much of what else is in that bill helps people, people who need and deserve help. I disagree that most of this should come from the Federal government, but maybe it is time to grow things. I don't know.
I'm a firm supporter of States Rights, even when that position keeps me from seeing a "win" on other important to me issues. I don't believe in 'flip flop as convenient' politics. Too much of that in office as it is I think.
But America needs an health care over haul.
I think Congress owes it to us to go back to work, and fix this, so that it is solidly Constitutional, provides people with the care and coverage they need, at rates that are fair to everyone, patients, doctors, hospitals and drug companies.
If I have 1 flaw, it's a desire for fairness. I'll take little pleasure in an over turning, and little in a vindication of the law.
What I want is a legal solution, that respects us all.
So while I promise I will be mocking all sides, because I find some of the cartoons amusing, don't think I find people hurting and suffering at all funny. They are the ones that all this unnecessary crap is really hurting, and who our Congress let down when they failed to produce something that was legal and functional from the start.
