Suggestion on takedown
- Thread starter psilent child
- Start date
I like that. Seems a good, universal explanation. Applies to throws, too, with very few exceptions, if we accept that shifting their weight to a leg so they can't step off it is the "restrict at least one leg" component.
oftheherd1
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If the blow doesn't snap their neck, paralyzing or killing them ...
Add a little bit on top of that.
You want to take over your opponent's position. You want him to fall at your original position.
I agree with gpseymour that without knowing the opponent's exact position, balance, and weight distribution you aren't going to know the best takedown to use.
I agree with JowGaWolf that a right hand tiger claw to the chin followed by stepping offline and a left hand chop to the groin doesn't seem like the most optimal combination considering the likely reactions and relative body positions. Perhaps if you had video of how you picture that playing out I would reconsider.
I agree with drop bear that if you've just successfully landed the upwards chop to the groin, you are likely in a good position for a high crotch entry. (Note - the high crotch is just the entry, there are a lot of potential finishes. The lift drop bear posted is one possibility. Another is just switching off to a standard double-leg.)
I agree with JowGaWolf that a right hand tiger claw to the chin followed by stepping offline and a left hand chop to the groin doesn't seem like the most optimal combination considering the likely reactions and relative body positions. Perhaps if you had video of how you picture that playing out I would reconsider.
I agree with drop bear that if you've just successfully landed the upwards chop to the groin, you are likely in a good position for a high crotch entry. (Note - the high crotch is just the entry, there are a lot of potential finishes. The lift drop bear posted is one possibility. Another is just switching off to a standard double-leg.)
drop bear
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You probably should not be tiger clawing anybody that frail.
My taking over their position, I can buy that, it's my center attacking theirs is the way I say that. But I've got lots of nifty throws where opponent lands no where near to their original position... except in a glactic sense.
Judo names here... hizaguruma, sode tsuri-ashi, de-ashi barai.... hmmm now that I'm following the physics, nearly all backward (uke's perspective) throws/takedowns don't put uke near to where I begin.
But, I can see your point if you were thinking of forward (uke's perspective again) throws/takedowns (shoulder throw variatiohns, hip throw variations, etc).
Buka, Are those the underlying principles talked about in BJJ for takedowns? The ones for judo are kuzushi, tsukuri and gake (off-balance, entry & execution). I wonder if it's just different name-calling again.
I agree with the first part. I don't always want him to take my spot, though. A single-leg takedown to the rear doesn't put him anywhere near my original position, nor do many of the NGA techniques. As a principle, it fits, as long as you don't get nit-picky (which I, clearly, do).
Names are words, words are labels, and labels can have layered meanings.
Kuzushi, the word itself, "could" mean each of the three things that Buka described, but knowing/feeling the judo I can tell there's more to it, e.g. moving the head would correspondingly bend the spine if the person does not step, thus breaking posture, i.e. kuzushi. Or, if a step is taken to keep posture, it is a step he was forced to take which was not desired, i.e. kuzushi.
Freakin' words.
Kuzushi, the word itself, "could" mean each of the three things that Buka described, but knowing/feeling the judo I can tell there's more to it, e.g. moving the head would correspondingly bend the spine if the person does not step, thus breaking posture, i.e. kuzushi. Or, if a step is taken to keep posture, it is a step he was forced to take which was not desired, i.e. kuzushi.
Freakin' words.
Sami Ibrahim
Green Belt
If you can place a hand on their groin, turn it into a grab and throw them by their junk, the typical response to having their junk struck at an upward angle is to rise slightly onto their toes (heels up), if you can seize and jerk (no pun intended) you will yank them off their feet.
Sami Ibrahim
Green Belt
Alternatively if you can land a thrusting (not snapping) direct palm strike to the chin at an upward angle you can strike the groin directly with the other hand without stepping to 3 o clock and use a push pull action (push the chin pull the testicles) to throw them onto the back of their neck.
Sami Ibrahim
Green Belt
Alternatively you can simply compress their cervical spine after your palm strike lands by pushing down on their face after you make them look at the sky from the initial impact, The compression will lock the cervical spine and cause the knees to buckle, thus you can take them down using the first move and skip the rest of it. (I suggest stepping onto their lead foot as you do this to keep from a possible knee strike counter and if you screw it up and knock them back the pinned foot may cause them to fall back and sprain their ankle)
Juany118
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I personally see it as the same, while some will see a takedown as synonymous with a throw.
As for your prior point I agree. Your entry to a take down has to be in part informed by the overall positioning of an opponent. As an example, if someone if in a "tight" boxers stance (from head to toe), and I am on the "offense", I am not going to be attempting an armbar takedown. If forced to say "what would you do" I would probably say that I would try to set them up for a takedown or throw that involves me trapping a limb in order to open the way for head/neck manipulation, even if it's just a glorified clothesline throw.
Don't know concerning BJJ.
But I'll tell you what from the OP. If you're going to Tiger Claw to the chin anyway, the relative position of the hand to the chin is something to look at. In a Tiger Claw, your palm is up (finger position to the sky, even if retracted.) Try turning your fingers parallel to the ground instead, and bull dogging rather than striking. "Bull Dogging" is grabbing the chin and the back of the head, and twisting the opponent to the ground. Obviously, two handed. Two hands moving at the same time (the right time) doesn't take any longer than a Tiger Claw to the chin, it's not two moves, it's at the same time, just one beat.)
The chin is moved sideways, almost the same as it would be by a right cross on the button, except without the impact. The neck muscles and back muscles will resist against the upward motion of the Tiger Claw a lot easier than by any force going sideways. (lifting the chin slightly upwards is the best way.) Think of it in terms of a Muay Thai Plum - incorrectly against the back of the neck, or up where it should be)
The way the neck and spine are connected - when the neck starts twisting the body to the ground, the body responds in order to survive. One leg - and you'll see which leg, depending on which way you turn him when you practice this - goes limp, it shuts off. That's the "restricting of at least one leg." Has to do with the neck/spine connection.
it takes so little time practicing this, - before you know it, you can put the man on the ground on his face, his side or his back - Every Time. Every single time.
IMPORTANT - The only time you cant do this - if somebody else has a hold of the persons legs, you can not bulldog. They'll likely get injured.
I like bull dogging. (It was documented as "Jaw Control" when I was in DT) I like double leg take downs, too. But I can see better, over all big picture wise, with bull dogging.
oftheherd1
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Yes, thank you. That was the point. We must always be cautious as to what consequences we are possibly going to have to live with.
