Stickfighting Tourneys

[Icepick]

What kind of rules can be used to make stickfighting tournaments more realistic, without sacrificing too much safety? I'm sure there are a lot of tough athletes here, but few people are willing to sacrifice IQ points to have fully realistic competition.

The only tournament I've seen was WEKAF style, and it seems like most competitors are willing to take 1 to give 1. Bad move in any weapons sparring. I know that Renegade has been setting up tourneys with the flexible sticks, but I'm not sure of all the rules there. Would someone share their experience? Any ideas on how to balance realism and safety?

 

[Cthulhu]

Try looking up the Dog Brothers in a search engine. They do a lot of full-contact stickfighting.

Cthulhu

 

[Icepick]

Cthulhu -

I'm familiar with the Dog Brothers, but that is precisely the type of training that very few people are ever going to want to do. The frequency of broken hands, cheese grater wounds from fencing masks and massive welts is a higher price than most students are willing to pay. I agree that their Real Contact Stickfighting is the most realistic sparring I've seen, but in my time training only Renegade and a couple of his top guys were willing to do it with me. There's got to be something in the middle.

 

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, the Dog Brothers can be a bit...extreme...to say the least

As goofy as it sounds, how about using those foam-padded practice sticks with protective gear (helmet with face cage, forearm/fist protection, shin/instep protection, CUP!, body protection). That way, you can swing full power and not really hurt the other fella. The padding may also be fairly light, like the simple cloth pads, except for the helmet. Don't go cheap on the head protection.

What was WEKAF style stuff like?

Cthulhu

 

[Icepick]

WEKAF uses a heavy helmet, padded body armor and reed thin rattan. My bigger beef is with the rules, where the score it almost like boxing. It seems to emphasize who gets more faster, when really, the entry and 1st strike have to be the most important.

Renegade's Action Flex sticks are nice, but a little flippy for my liking. I always liked sparring with our homemade foam, PVC sheathed in insulation, then wrapped with duct tape. Won't break bones, but stings enough to make you cover your entry.

 

[DWright]

We use the same foam padded PVC "canes" for full contact sparring. We then got hockey helmets with full face cage.
Padding for forearms and shins. Gloves for the hands (we used hockey gloves), then followed the rules in Professor Presas' first book. (the pink one).

There are three different contests. 1. A one blow match=the first one in with a "killing blow" wins. 2. A three blow match= the first one the get two "killing blows" out of three wins. 3. and the one we use. A point match. Judges score the rounds by form, attitude, and correct distance, and target.

It works well for us, and the padded canes sting enough to keep it real.

 

[Icepick]

Sounds like fun, DWright!

Can you grab the opponent's stick?

 

[DWright]

We allow disarms, and the checking of the padded canes. I use the reasoning that since we teach disarming we would use it as self defense, so we should use it in sparring.

However, grabbing and disarming are not discussed in the Professors book.

 

[Icepick]

I agree, Dinelle, I like including disarms in sparring. They don't happen often, in my experience, but once in a while, we get tied up and you find yourself in a disarming position. Some of the prying techniques are difficult with the PVC, due to their flexibility, but the hooking-style disarms usually work.

 

[DWright]

I have found the same thing. One full speed disarm can bust a PVC cane in two.

I also encourage my students to attemp sparring empty handed when they have been disarmed. If nothing else it teached proper distance.

 

[DWright]

I just got home from my Sunday morning class. I tried a new training technique in my class. I got this idea from a kids game, and then modified it for training. We had a blast, and the intensity of the class was amazing.

I took regular wooden clothes pins (with the spring) and pinned one to every students shirt at chest level. I then had them defend their clothes pin while sparring. It was great live hand practice, and they had to look for the openings to grab the other clothes pin. Easy to score, the one who still has their clothes pin wins.

After we had done that with one padded cane we did it empty handed.

We also changed the position of the pins, and the number we used, defending two clothes pins at different levels was a challenge.

 

[Cthulhu]

That sounds like a GREAT idea! Thanks for sharing it with us!

Cthulhu

 

[IFAJKD]

Icepick:
I am not sure what you are trying to do.. If you want realistic training benefits in stick sparring then try stick sparring in flow.
I. Protective Equipment
try using hockey gloves that protect the thumb. use of boxing gloves can also work. eye protection and elbow protection if wanted.
NEXT: have an agreement between partners if there will be srtikes to the body or not.

Note: Head hunting is a result of too much tournaments. The concept of "defanging the snake" is what you want to explore. this is the process of hitting the hand that holds the weapon. This IS THE disarm. the others are less effective. This is also a lost art as many have done the head hunting tournament sceen and do not go for the hand. DO NOT STAND THERE AND TRADE BLOWS. It's better to never hit in a round than to be hit ONCE.

II. Flow
begin by using double stick vs double stick than after 2 min move to single stick vs single stick again after 2 min move to stick and knife vs stick and knife....after 2 min. go o knife vs knife after 2 min go to empty hand vs empty hand. these all go on without interuption at all. toss the stick without stopping and keep going all the way through it.

 

[IFAJKD]

I have to add the the attributes that come from prolonged training of this type are too many to mention. you begin to fight empty hand as you would with weapons. In short the threat of a knife would make you move very differently would it not ? this is bladed motion in part.....in part If you focus on Reality training, this type is unbeatable for development

 

[Icepick]

IFAJKD -

I agree with everything you said, especially about headhunting vs. striking the hand. Since most spar with gloves, the hand shots are often shrugged off. They also happen so fast, they are hard to see. However, the knuckle on my right index finger is now larger than either of my thumbs. That comes from a few years of training with Renegade. :cuss:I just wondered what others do. I don't want to miss out on anything good!

I placed the thread in a tournament context because of my recent experiences with BJJ. I find that I can roll for 5-6 rounds before I hit the wall in class. However, when it's a tournament, against someone I don't know, with a crowd watching, the adrenaline wipes me out in no time. I wonder if there is a way to create that atmosphere in a stickfighting context, short of the obvious fear that someone will cave your head in, because you are not wearing equipment.

One thing I haven't played with much is double stick sparring. I would think that a caveman style would become prevalent (one stick out to block, one chambered to strike). Have you noticed that in your training?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Icepick
One thing I haven't played with much is double stick sparring. I would think that a caveman style would become prevalent (one stick out to block, one chambered to strike). Have you noticed that in your training?

Mr. Hartman and I experimented with this many years back and my recollection is that at the time we agreed that with single stick one often wanted to strike first but with double stick one often wanted to draw the strike as you indicate. I too picked up some bruises at the time...though I once had the satisfaction of leaving a magnificent black-and-blue stripe across his arm.

 

[IFAJKD]

Icepick: Not too sure how to recreate that atmosphere. The caveman mentality with double stick can be avoided by training the 5 basic ways to hold a weapon and sparring one way at a time against an opponent that is matching up the same way.

1. high open
2. midline open
3. low line open
4. centerline
5. chambered (think start position in a 6 count sinawali)

last round mix them all up
good luck.

 

[IFAJKD]

if you subscribe to the thought that you can't fight any two people the same way, then the five basic ways to hold a weapon works well as a tactic. some will respond by drawing some by picking and others by a straight sinawali blast down their centerline. The bruises are great though. a saturn type mark just leaves you feeling warm all over