Spirit: the third (forgotten?) part of the triangle

[girlbug2]

The Mind, Body, Spirit saying is arguably the most universal martial arts phrase . The way it was explained to me in Kenpo, those are the three parts that make up a balanced person; all parts must be nurtured in the martial arts. You are not just a body, nor a body and a mind, but also a spirit.

Now I don't believe that it is possible to teach any martial art without including the body and the mind. Obviously the art manifests physically, originating in the mind of the artist first. The spiritual side however is more subtle and has never been pinned down to my satisfaction. What would you (or your art) say the "spirit" aspects of MA is? Is there something that manifests during training together in the dojo, an undefinable "force"? Is "spirit" in the philosophy and teaching of the instructor regarding when and how to apply the art? Does faith in a higher power come into play at all in your dojo -- does your sensei discuss matters of spirituality explicitly as such?

But really, how many senseis even attempt to explicitly address the spirit side of the triangle?

I am guessing, based on my own limited experiences with 3 different styles, that "spirit" is the most commonly neglected of the three aspects of the MA triangle. Or, perhaps the senseis typically do not waste time on that with the lower ranking students, in which case, perhaps I need to get a higher rank to find out.

How (if at all) is spirit addressed in your dojo? And is it regarded equally with mind and body?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will say this and then get out of the way

First the Spirit or Spirituality you are talking about is intrinsic to many martial arts. It is not separate nor does it stand out and it is not the job of any MA teacher to teach spirituality. The eastern cultures that many MA styles come from do not compartmentalize things like we do here in the west.

And to clarify the term "Spirit" does not always mean or translate the same to other cultures.

China - Spirit is Shen but when talking about shen you are talking about the mind in China, not religion.

Also I feel that this "search" for spirituality in many martial arts is in fact ruining many martial arts

OK, now I will get out of the way

 

[girlbug2]

First the Spirit or Spirituality you are talking about is intrinsic to many martial arts. It is not separate nor does it stand out and it is not the job of any MA teacher to teach spirituality. The eastern cultures that many MA styles come from do not compartmentalize things like we do here in the west.

So does that mean it is an indefinable force?
I suppose what I'm getting at is, whatever people might call the "martial spirit", is it a feeling/energy you get when a group comes together to train, or is it purely the philosophical principles that the art is based on?

 

[Xue Sheng]

First the Spirit or Spirituality you are talking about is intrinsic to many martial arts. It is not separate nor does it stand out and it is not the job of any MA teacher to teach spirituality. The eastern cultures that many MA styles come from do not compartmentalize things like we do here in the west.

So does that mean it is an indefinable force?
I suppose what I'm getting at is, whatever people might call the "martial spirit", is it a feeling/energy you get when a group comes together to train, or is it purely the philosophical principles that the art is based on?

I can absolutely guarantee I am not the person you want in this post, beyond my previous post, if you want to keep it going. Just search for any topics on spirituality in MA and Xue Sheng and you will see why.

Good luck in your search

 

[girlbug2]

As you wish:|

(sigh) I hope I'm not the only one interested in this topic!

 

[Steel Tiger]

The Mind, Body, Spirit saying is arguably the most universal martial arts phrase . The way it was explained to me in Kenpo, those are the three parts that make up a balanced person; all parts must be nurtured in the martial arts. You are not just a body, nor a body and a mind, but also a spirit.

Now I don't believe that it is possible to teach any martial art without including the body and the mind. Obviously the art manifests physically, originating in the mind of the artist first. The spiritual side however is more subtle and has never been pinned down to my satisfaction. What would you (or your art) say the "spirit" aspects of MA is? Is there something that manifests during training together in the dojo, an undefinable "force"? Is "spirit" in the philosophy and teaching of the instructor regarding when and how to apply the art? Does faith in a higher power come into play at all in your dojo -- does your sensei discuss matters of spirituality explicitly as such?

But really, how many senseis even attempt to explicitly address the spirit side of the triangle?

I am guessing, based on my own limited experiences with 3 different styles, that "spirit" is the most commonly neglected of the three aspects of the MA triangle. Or, perhaps the senseis typically do not waste time on that with the lower ranking students, in which case, perhaps I need to get a higher rank to find out.

How (if at all) is spirit addressed in your dojo? And is it regarded equally with mind and body?

To continue where Xue left off, that is the CMA perspective, Shen, spirit, is a necessary component in doing anything. It is intent. Let me see if I can explain it. You have five elements operating here - Shen (spirit), Yi (the reasoning mind), Qi (life energy/breath), Li (muscular strength), and Jin (force). To produce Jin the Shen guides the Yi to coordinate Qi and Li. Does that make sense? In English - Intent guides the Reasoning Mind to coordinate Life Energy and Muscular Strength to produce Force.

Of course this is a very internal MA view of this, but the internal arts do tend to be involved with this sort of thing a bit more than the external ones. Because of this Spirit is not dealt with separately in my classes it is just a part of what we do.

Spirituality is another matter. The funny thing about spirituality is that it doesn't have to have anything to do with spirit. It is more about beliefs and morals, and in that instance I address it, albeit in a cursory fashion, through the Taoist philosophy that is an intrinsic part of bagua.

 

[Errant108]

Prove the spirit exists.

 

[tellner]

I will say this and then get out of the way
...MANY TRUE THINGS...
OK, now I will get out of the way

Word.

 

[Kacey]

Prove the spirit exists.

Prove it doesn't. Proving, or disproving, an intangible of that nature is a philosophical exercise - it goes along with proving faith.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Character or morals a teacher can help or affect with a practitioner.

Spirit just is! As Xue pointed out it is intrinsic. In one art that I study the system of Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi Sensei spends very little if any time on this. When asked he says to just train. That says alot. Just train and do!

As for the spirit being neglected in training? No way as it is always there! :asian:

 

[jkembry]

Spirit to me is something that cannot be taught. That being said, I do believe that training and training more makes me aware of the spirit (actually I prefer Qi or energy). Qi is something that I have felt from time to time during my short tenure of training. And I find in it manifests itself in different ways with me. the trick for me is to be aware of its existence and to keep on training.

- Jeff -

 

[punisher73]

I think that in the west when we usually say "spirit" we mean the soul, and as such any discussion usually involves a religious aspect. This might be why many instructors do not talk about spirit, they don't want to put their religious views onto other students.

I also think that "spirit" as it refers to martial aspects can also imply and take into consideration a person's "emotional content" (I think Bruce Lee even used that term). Another way to put it is your intent.

I think that "spirit" is also an almost indefinable and VERY personal thing that is when you are unified with yourself and others around you. I think a lot of us have met a very "spiritual person" who just seemed to possess an energy around them. I'm NOT talking about a religious person who does all the "do's and don'ts" of their chosen religion. It isn't something you can prove or even quantify it is just something that is.

I'm not sure how you can really teach that to someone. I think if a student asks than if you have walked on that path before you can help point them on how to start to walk the path. But, I think that each person experiences it in their own way and discovers their own path.

 

[girlbug2]

To continue where Xue left off, that is the CMA perspective, Shen, spirit, is a necessary component in doing anything. It is intent. Let me see if I can explain it. You have five elements operating here - Shen (spirit), Yi (the reasoning mind), Qi (life energy/breath), Li (muscular strength), and Jin (force). To produce Jin the Shen guides the Yi to coordinate Qi and Li. Does that make sense? In English - Intent guides the Reasoning Mind to coordinate Life Energy and Muscular Strength to produce Force.

Of course this is a very internal MA view of this, but the internal arts do tend to be involved with this sort of thing a bit more than the external ones. Because of this Spirit is not dealt with separately in my classes it is just a part of what we do.

Spirituality is another matter. The funny thing about spirituality is that it doesn't have to have anything to do with spirit. It is more about beliefs and morals, and in that instance I address it, albeit in a cursory fashion, through the Taoist philosophy that is an intrinsic part of bagua.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had always supposed Chi (qi) to mean spirit. That sequence actually makes sense to me.

I would disagree that spirituality doesn't have anything to do with spirit however, if spirit is defined as intent. Intent has a lot to do with beliefs and morals.

So to sum up, the CMA view is that spirit is just intrinsic to the martial arts. Got it

 

[girlbug2]

Spirit to me is something that cannot be taught. That being said, I do believe that training and training more makes me aware of the spirit (actually I prefer Qi or energy). Qi is something that I have felt from time to time during my short tenure of training. And I find in it manifests itself in different ways with me. the trick for me is to be aware of its existence and to keep on training.

- Jeff -

Qi/energy/force=result of training. I concur.

 

[CoryKS]

Our school uses the term to mean the student's willingness to perform with intensity and to give the maximum effort even after your lung has fallen out and walked off to get a drink. Sometimes we have kata sessions where the goal is to demonstrate spirit even if the performance degrades somewhat.

 

[girlbug2]

I think that in the west when we usually say "spirit" we mean the soul, and as such any discussion usually involves a religious aspect. This might be why many instructors do not talk about spirit, they don't want to put their religious views onto other students.

I also think that "spirit" as it refers to martial aspects can also imply and take into consideration a person's "emotional content" (I think Bruce Lee even used that term). Another way to put it is your intent.

I think that "spirit" is also an almost indefinable and VERY personal thing that is when you are unified with yourself and others around you. I think a lot of us have met a very "spiritual person" who just seemed to possess an energy around them. I'm NOT talking about a religious person who does all the "do's and don'ts" of their chosen religion. It isn't something you can prove or even quantify it is just something that is.

I'm not sure how you can really teach that to someone. I think if a student asks than if you have walked on that path before you can help point them on how to start to walk the path. But, I think that each person experiences it in their own way and discovers their own path.

I am getting that so far -- instructors are unwilling to touch upon religious aspects. Perhaps because of fear of litigation in our hyper-sue modern times?

Regarding a "spiritual person" -- I have met people with tremendous charisma, regardless of religious beliefs. Some people just have it naturally.

 

[Kacey]

I am getting that so far -- instructors are unwilling to touch upon religious aspects. Perhaps because of fear of litigation in our hyper-sue modern times?

Regarding a "spiritual person" -- I have met people with tremendous charisma, regardless of religious beliefs. Some people just have it naturally.

"Spirit/spirituality" and "religion" can be - and often are - separate. As an instructor, I talk about "spirit"more in the sense Cory used (willingness, effort, perseverance, etc.) than anything else. Some arts or organizations are organized to promulgate a certain religion, but most are not, certainly not in the sense that is meant in the US. It has nothing to do with fear of litigation; it is because, while most arts teach morality (which, for many people, has a religious connotation or context), at least in terms of proper use of the skills being taught, religion itself is not part of most arts. If the two were not kept separate, then students would limited to instructors who share their own religion - and being Jewish, it would have been really hard for me to find an instructor; likewise, none of my current students are Jewish.

There are plenty of people whose religious beliefs are in direct contradiction to those of their instructors, or to precepts of a particular art; instructors can either accommodate those differences, and therefore those students, or will be unable to teach them. But the teaching of actual religion in the martial arts should be limited to those classes/organizations that are intended to do so, and it should be made obvious to prospective students that the class is being used to promulgate a particular religion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would disagree that spirituality doesn't have anything to do with spirit however, if spirit is defined as intent. Intent has a lot to do with beliefs and morals.

OK to quote my favorite philosopher "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more"

WARNING Rant to follow

NO NO NO NO NO

Spirit in CMA has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with beliefs or morals.

Shen = Spirit = Unified mind
Do you need a Unified mind to pursue spirituality, well likely or at least the Buddhist think so but having a unified mind DOES NOT mean spirituality, Morality or Beliefs. It means "Clear thinking" Just because you can think clearly DOES NOT mean you are spiritual, Moral or have any beliefs that would qualify as spiritual.

After that is Yi which is intent and there is no mysticism, religion or morality it is being sharply focused. Now do you need to be sharply focused for meditation? Yes

But does being sharply focused mean you are spiritual? No. It means you have the ability to concentrate your thoughts.

Again being sharply focused in thinking DOES NOT necessarily mean you are or have any desire to be Spiritual. I took calculus 3 in College and I can tell you that took a lot of focus but I sure would not call it spiritual

Qi is internal energy that we all have in the body and is about as spiritual as is the Skeletal system. Ask a TCMA teacher born and raised in China or an OMD born raised and trained in China and you will AT BEST get something close to a lesson in Anatomy and physiology… that is if they talk to you about it at all.

From my branch of Taijiquan you need Shen, Yi and Shi (Shi is proper posture) after that you have Yi, Qi, Li.

None of that is spiritual to me to me it is

You have to have a calm mind to focus your thoughts and in order to do this you have to be comfortable in the correct posture

Next Yi

You now can concentrate to move energy to move your muscles.

Now if after training and understanding ALL of that if someone wants to go off looking for spirituality, more power to them. But if you go into this looking for Spirituality you end up with a watered down MA that ends up in philosophical discussions that try and justify the "violence" of MA that just can't be right since one is a spiritual being and thereby you DO NOT TRAIN properly and you get Watered down useless MA. This whole idea of Forced, compartmentalized, oh you must be a guru after 15 years of taiji, idea of spirituality is making me SERIOSLY consider switching to MMA or putting all my focus into Sanda just to get the heck away from it. Why oh why we here in the west want to know how to spiritually wack someone up side the head I have NO idea.

It is not the job of any MA teacher to teach anyone spirituality it is not the job of any MA teacher to have spiritual discussions with his students and it is not the job of the teacher to show you any proper path to walk.

As my taiji Sifu has said when asked about the "Spirituality" of Taiji "I don't know about spirituality I know about taiji"

Learn whatever MA you want, train it and train it hard and you will be surprised at what you learn about yourself and others but if you are looking for overt spirituality or philosophical discussions about it go to a church not a martial arts school.

Rant Over

Sorry I could not sit back any longer

Spirituallity is fine but trying to seperate it from any TCMA and highlight it is not. If that is what you want I truly hope you find like minded folks that will discuss it with you but a lot of us old warrions have heard it way to often.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Growing up here in Miami there were a lot of fights.

In those fights sometimes you fought a bigger guy or sometimes a gang but if you had heart you were always respected.

Heart/Intent/Spirit/Will these things are not something really trained.

They are a by product of yourself,experiences,training, and discipline.

It may seem this is neglected in the training hall but in fact each part of training is building this.

The Spirit forms naturally thru patience and training. However it should not be the goal to be spiritual because this will only get in the way of the spirit forming naturally.

 

[girlbug2]

OK to quote my favorite philosopher "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more"

WARNING Rant to follow

NO NO NO NO NO

Spirit in CMA has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with beliefs or morals.

Shen = Spirit = Unified mind
Do you need a Unified mind to pursue spirituality, well likely or at least the Buddhist think so but having a unified mind DOES NOT mean spirituality, Morality or Beliefs. It means "Clear thinking" Just because you can think clearly DOES NOT mean you are spiritual, Moral or have any beliefs that would qualify as spiritual.

After that is Yi which is intent and there is no mysticism, religion or morality it is being sharply focused. Now do you need to be sharply focused for meditation? Yes

But does being sharply focused mean you are spiritual? No. It means you have the ability to concentrate your thoughts.

Again being sharply focused in thinking DOES NOT necessarily mean you are or have any desire to be Spiritual. I took calculus 3 in College and I can tell you that took a lot of focus but I sure would not call it spiritual

Qi is internal energy that we all have in the body and is about as spiritual as is the Skeletal system. Ask a TCMA teacher born and raised in China or an OMD born raised and trained in China and you will AT BEST get something close to a lesson in Anatomy and physiology… that is if they talk to you about it at all.

From my branch of Taijiquan you need Shen, Yi and Shi (Shi is proper posture) after that you have Yi, Qi, Li.

None of that is spiritual to me to me it is

You have to have a calm mind to focus your thoughts and in order to do this you have to be comfortable in the correct posture

Next Yi

You now can concentrate to move energy to move your muscles.

Now if after training and understanding ALL of that if someone wants to go off looking for spirituality, more power to them. But if you go into this looking for Spirituality you end up with a watered down MA that ends up in philosophical discussions that try and justify the "violence" of MA that just can't be right since one is a spiritual being and thereby you DO NOT TRAIN properly and you get Watered down useless MA. This whole idea of Forced, compartmentalized, oh you must be a guru after 15 years of taiji, idea of spirituality is making me SERIOSLY consider switching to MMA or putting all my focus into Sanda just to get the heck away from it. Why oh why we here in the west want to know how to spiritually wack someone up side the head I have NO idea.

It is not the job of any MA teacher to teach anyone spirituality it is not the job of any MA teacher to have spiritual discussions with his students and it is not the job of the teacher to show you any proper path to walk.

As my taiji Sifu has said when asked about the "Spirituality" of Taiji "I don't know about spirituality I know about taiji"

Learn whatever MA you want, train it and train it hard and you will be surprised at what you learn about yourself and others but if you are looking for overt spirituality or philosophical discussions about it go to a church not a martial arts school.

Rant Over

Sorry I could not sit back any longer

Spirituallity is fine but trying to seperate it from any TCMA and highlight it is not. If that is what you want I truly hope you find like minded folks that will discuss it with you but a lot of us old warrions have heard it way to often.

Dude, you have no idea how tempted I was to reply with a single J-word!

(Lord I do apologize..)

Seriously, I had no idea this would be such a hot button.

But I do ask, why would spirituality necessarily water down the martial arts? Is it not possible that spirituality could enhance one's training? After all, as I have been lead to understand it, the eastern martial arts are strongly connected to a monastic tradition.

I do agree that it is not a sensei's job to teach spirituality. But does that mean he cannot express his personal spiritual beliefs to the students in any aspect?

I understand that this topic is wearing on you, so if you are not inclined to respond that's okay, maybe someone else will take it up. My sincere thanks for your participation.