Southern Tiger style

[DaveB]

Karate is just what happened when the Okinawans we're taught southern kung-fu.

Varying degrees of blending with the indigenous "Te" happened as well as some merging with the Jigen ryu of the Satsuma samurai and karate is its own art.

As for Tiger-crane, the form he showed had many elements of the first three patterns.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

That's different from the story I learned, but I know that the school has some researchers who may have updated the details.

Many of the southern styles have a similar look and feel. I think until you see the advanced tiger form it will be hard to have any clue.

I always thought that the southern combination styles were based on the essential elements of the older northern shaolin stuff, but that's just an idea I had, not based on anything.

What was the story you learned? I'm curious.

 

[DaveB]

FWC used to give the White Crane origin: young girl learned monk fist from dad, dad is killed, girl sees a crane fighting a tiger and copies elements.... Etc.
Nam Yang used to say that Tiger-crane was the last and most advanced style developed at the Shaolin temple.
I could be mistaken as it was . Long time ago that I looked into these things.
What do you think of the Tai Chor? I'm a bit confused as the videos all call it Grand Ancestor fist, no mention of tigers. More research is needed.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

FWC used to give the White Crane origin: young girl learned monk fist from dad, dad is killed, girl sees a crane fighting a tiger and copies elements.... Etc.
Nam Yang used to say that Tiger-crane was the last and most advanced style developed at the Shaolin temple.
I could be mistaken as it was . Long time ago that I looked into these things.
What do you think of the Tai Chor? I'm a bit confused as the videos all call it Grand Ancestor fist, no mention of tigers. More research is needed.

Yes, I had heard that tale too for the origin of white crane. There is a similar story of how northern shaolin crane was conceived, which basically goes that a young shaolin monk had finished his training but couldn't start his journey years because he was too timid in battle. He would lose against novices purely because he didn't have to will to hit back. His teacher didn't want to send him off like that so instead had him meditate in the mountains each day to try and discover how he could fight. While meditating he witnessed a tiger attacking a flock of crane, and one crane stood up to the tiger, dodging around it until the tiger became exhausted and gave up. After seeing this, they young monk and his teacher developed the crane style.

As for Tai Chor, I'd never heard of it before it was brought up in this thread. Looking into it more it apparently is the original shaolin tiger style, but again we are talking northern shaolin here, so the origin of southern tiger (if there is such a thing) is still unknown.

The Origins of Shaolin Kung Fu

 

[DaveB]

Tai Chor is distinctively southern kung-fu. The southern styles are supposed to be descended from the northern ones as northern shaolin was first.
The problem I have is that it is only Tiger-crane websites that refer to Tai Chor as tiger style. Tai Chor people say it is Grand Ancestor fist. I might have heard that there is some correlation between the 5 animals of shaolin and the other 5 ancestors of Shaolin but I am unsure

 

[Flying Crane]

Tai Chor is distinctively southern kung-fu. The southern styles are supposed to be descended from the northern ones as northern shaolin was first.
The problem I have is that it is only Tiger-crane websites that refer to Tai Chor as tiger style. Tai Chor people say it is Grand Ancestor fist. I might have heard that there is some correlation between the 5 animals of shaolin and the other 5 ancestors of Shaolin but I am unsure

Well, northern shaolin wasn't first in any real sense. Different methods were practiced all over ancient China before, during, and after the development of methods at shaolin. There was a lot of borrowing and influencing from one to the next, but it's far from a clean "this, to that, to the next" kind of history.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, northern shaolin wasn't first in any real sense. Different methods were practiced all over ancient China before, during, and after the development of methods at shaolin. There was a lot of borrowing and influencing from one to the next, but it's far from a clean "this, to that, to the next" kind of history.

Yup, Shuaijiao, Xingyiquan, Tongbei, Changquan, all northern and not from Shaolin

 

[DaveB]

I was more trying to convey the point about the fujianese styles whose legends tend to trace from northern shaolin origins.

So when midnight shadow speaks of a southern tiger style I don't think he's right to look for one that is not tied historically to northern shaolin because as far as I can tell all the arts of that region seem to trace back north at least by association to the mythical southern temple.

In other words I think the best you're going to get is the official website of the Tiger-Crane school telling you that Tai Chor is the Tiger style they are based on.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I was more trying to convey the point about the fujianese styles whose legends tend to trace from northern shaolin origins.

So when midnight shadow speaks of a southern tiger style I don't think he's right to look for one that is not tied historically to northern shaolin because as far as I can tell all the arts of that region seem to trace back north at least by association to the mythical southern temple.

In other words I think the best you're going to get is the official website of the Tiger-Crane school telling you that Tai Chor is the Tiger style they are based on.

That is what is so interesting about southern crane vs northern crane, they each have their own legend on how they were created. I haven't been able to find any kind of legend for the other animal systems, with the exception of northern shaolin tiger (Tai Chor) and shaolin monkey. Lohan was the first style created by the shaolin monks, then Tai Chor (which beat Lohan), then Monkey, which beat Tai Chor and finally Crane, which beat Monkey. I can't find any stories related to the other styles. Then in the south all you have is the legend of white crane, and white tiger, but no others.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is what is so interesting about southern crane vs northern crane, they each have their own legend on how they were created. I haven't been able to find any kind of legend for the other animal systems, with the exception of northern shaolin tiger (Tai Chor) and shaolin monkey. Lohan was the first style created by the shaolin monks, then Tai Chor (which beat Lohan), then Monkey, which beat Tai Chor and finally Crane, which beat Monkey. I can't find any stories related to the other styles. Then in the south all you have is the legend of white crane, and white tiger, but no others.

Well, there is also Tibetan crane which is different, with its own traditions. I suspect there could be numerous regional methods of any of these, that are separate from the others and are simply not well known outside of their local region.

Also, regarding shaolin, I don't know that you can say Lohan was first, followed by these others that "beat" the predecessor. I suspect those stories were made up later to reinforce how "superior" each of these methods were in the eyes of their later practitioners. There was just a lot of stuff that either ended up being done there, or became somehow associated with shaolin thru legends that may or may not have some truth to them. A lot of it originated elsewhere and was brought to shaolin later. This stuff wasn't all created there.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Well, there is also Tibetan crane which is different, with its own traditions. I suspect there could be numerous regional methods of any of these, that are separate from the others and are simply not well known outside of their local region.

Also, regarding shaolin, I don't know that you can say Lohan was first, followed by these others that "beat" the predecessor. I suspect those stories were made up later to reinforce how "superior" each of these methods were in the eyes of their later practitioners. There was just a lot of stuff that either ended up being done there, or became somehow associated with shaolin thru legends that may or may not have some truth to them. A lot of it originated elsewhere and was brought to shaolin later. This stuff wasn't all created there.

That was just something I read when looking into the origin of Tai Chor. As with all these stories, it's impossible to know truth from fable as (especially for the southern styles) there is no written accounts, only oral tradition to go by.

 

[Nobody Important]

That's very karate looking. (referring to the movement and energy of it)

I can't tell it apart from Ngo Cho Kun, it looks exactly the same.

 

[Nobody Important]

FWC used to give the White Crane origin: young girl learned monk fist from dad, dad is killed, girl sees a crane fighting a tiger and copies elements.... Etc.
Nam Yang used to say that Tiger-crane was the last and most advanced style developed at the Shaolin temple.
I could be mistaken as it was . Long time ago that I looked into these things.
What do you think of the Tai Chor? I'm a bit confused as the videos all call it Grand Ancestor fist, no mention of tigers. More research is needed.

Fairly certain that was 5 Ancestor Fist. Tai Cho is one of the 5 arts That make up Ngo Cho Kun (5 Ancestors Fist). The other 4 being White Crane, Monkey, Lohan & Tamo. Nam Yang, regardless of their origin story is actually a branch of Ngo Cho Kun, same forms etc.